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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: 1 |
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Originally "Science as a religion"
Do you practice what you preach?
Milk is not good for your health and you should stop drinking it. I wish I could find the article that inspired me. It circulated Facebook a few months ago. It was written by a leading scientist who had evidence that pointed out just how incorrect the FDA guidelines for dairy consumption are. About 75% of the population is unable to properly digest lactose-- why do you think you are in the 25%?
His recommendation was simple: stop eating products with lactose in them for a month and then see if you notice a difference.
It is hard. I had to completely to completely change my diet. And empty my house of milk products or the temptation was great.
Now, after having runny noses for all of my life, I can cleanly breath through my nose. I feel healthier. And when I eat cheese, the next day I have a stuffy nose. My diet has changed from milk products to fresh produce and nut products. My grocery bill didn't change significantly.
One of the really good aspect of the Catholic Church is Lent. Think about the amount of scientific progress that can be learned by using yourself as test subject for 40? days once a year.
If you believe the leading research on lactose, I highly recommend giving up milk products for a month. If you are Catholic, I would recommend giving up lactose next Lent.
Last edited by MatthewV on Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: 2 |
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(secretly I am hoping this thread turns into something that shows the hypocrisy of science as a religion  ) |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: 3 |
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Umm, what? Here you are, advocating people do some more or less controlled experiments, but you're anti-science? What do you think science is?
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: 4 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| (secretly I am hoping this thread turns into something that shows the hypocrisy of science as a religion ) |
Science is a religion. It has two pieces of faith
1. The universe has rules that it follows.
2. Humanity can through experimentation and thought determine those rules over time, or at least find good approximations to those rules that will be gradually improved upon. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:41 am Post subject: 5 |
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| I don't get what the initial post has to do with the title "science as religion". What is this thread about? |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: 6 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| (secretly I am hoping this thread turns into something that shows the hypocrisy of science as a religion ) |
Science is a religion. It has two pieces of faith
1. The universe has rules that it follows.
2. Humanity can through experimentation and thought determine those rules over time, or at least find good approximations to those rules that will be gradually improved upon. |
From Chuck's personal site: http://chuckgaydos.homestead.com/files/index.html
| Quote: |
Favorite joke:
Why do we use inductive reasoning?
Because it's worked in the past. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:03 am Post subject: 7 |
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| Churches have original leaders. Science is supposed to have evolving leaders. You try on the ideas you think are right. You find out about new ideas. You listen when they have a good reputation and appear to be true. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:04 am Post subject: 8 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| Science is supposed to have evolving leaders. |
Scientists do teach the idea of evolution, right? |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: 9 |
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| I still don't get it. |
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:17 am Post subject: 10 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| I still don't get it. |
I presume MatthewV wants to blame his problems with lactose on the fact that most nutrition teaches that you should consume some amount of milk each day without much subtlety.
Some research on wiki shows that lactose intolerance varies drastically by certain racial genetics markers; Northern Europeans tend not to be lactose while most other races are. Which explains the lack of subtlety in nutritional information, since a large fraction of American citizens are of Northern European ancestry.
I presume a trip to the doctor's with a specific request to check for lactose intolerance could verify lactose intolerance faster than giving it up for Lent. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:35 am Post subject: 11 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| I presume a trip to the doctor's with a specific request to check for lactose intolerance could verify lactose intolerance faster than giving it up for Lent. |
That's science for you. 
I'm guessing if he really wanted to discuss science as a religion, he would have posted what constitutes a "religion" and shown how science differs. If he comes to that, I'm ready to go.
I don't understand this notion of "dairy being bad for humans." I haven't read any such article, but I have had plenty of people tell me this information as though they believed it as fact. I can only hope they have analyzed significant research before coming to that conclusion.
The most common remark is "no other animal consumes the milk of other animals." I'm not sure if that's true, but regardless, I would counter by saying no other animal has as diverse a habitat as homo sapiens, therefore you can't expect their dietary restrictions to be the same. Even then, isn't their premise fallacious?
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: 12 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| Do you practice what you preach? |
No, if I understand your meaning, but what's the relevance?
For instance, I truly believe carbohydrates are harmful, at or above a certain level that is common in human diets. But I still often consume them at or above that level. What does that imply? Nothing significant that I can think of. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: 13 |
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Consuming lactose is a choice you make. You don't have to make this choice. You have told been all you life you should drink milk. You never ever see a reason you shouldn't make this choice.
This choice is bad for your overall health and your overall happiness.
Scientists show great evidence. They also spout out claims and show people facts. People like myself try it and have similar results. My life got better because of this change I made. I feel, as a person of science, I should share this information with everyone.
Stop eating lactose for one month, starting as soon as you possibly can. Or go to the doctor as Thok suggested.
And cultural bonus points if you discover that there are cultures who have known this for centuries. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: 14 |
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| I guess the right question to ask is do you care about your health? |
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3iff
very unbifflike
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: 15 |
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Ah, a thread I might have hoped would appear...apart from the misleading title.
Perhaps junk science might be better...even though it may have worked in your case.
Coffee is bad for you...blah,blah,
***** 2 weeks later *****
Coffee is good for you...blah,blah,
How many times do we read such things? Something is pronounced BAD then shortly afterwards, it's declared to be GOOD. Newspapers tend to be filled with such articles, mainly just repeated from press releases without ANY investigation whatsoever.
If we believed half of these pronouncements then we wouldn't be able to do anything without putting ourselves at the point of immediate death.
Only a week ago, I read about this new 'wonder pill' that could save thousands of lives...the test group was (I think) 77 people. This isn't science.
| Quote: |
| It was written by a leading scientist who had evidence |
No offence, MattV, but this sort of statement makes me cringe.
Far too many 'leading scientists' are more concerned about securing their next grant.
-----
I accept that people may have allergies or bad reactions to certain food types so I'm happy that it appears to have worked in your case. |
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: 16 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| I don't understand this notion of "dairy being bad for humans." I haven't read any such article, but I have had plenty of people tell me this information as though they believed it as fact. I can only hope they have analyzed significant research before coming to that conclusion. |
The idea is fairly simple. People whose genetics comes from cultures that typically didn't have cows tend to lost the the ability to process lactose later in life, while people whose genetics come from cultures that typically did have cows don't develop lactose intolerance.
If you are white and have blond hair and blue eyes, you probably aren't lactose intolerant. If you are Asian, you probably are lactose intolerant.
Here's the thing: the above information is easy to figure out if you just read wikipedia and then do so follow ups on google. Information is easy to obtain; you just need to know how to process it. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: 17 |
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Well, I'm about as Germanic as they come. 
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Now, after having runny noses for all of my life, I can cleanly breath through my nose. I feel healthier. And when I eat cheese, the next day I have a stuffy nose. My diet has changed from milk products to fresh produce and nut products. My grocery bill didn't change significantly. |
How do you know the lack of dairy is responsible? You say you altered another part of your diet, so the change in your body could be attributed to that.
Why are you on such a kick to advocate against lactose? It's baffling. Plus, you really haven't shown any........I think I see what you're doing. That's a poor mockery.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: 18 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| (secretly I am hoping this thread turns into something that shows the hypocrisy of science as a religion ) |
I must confess, I'm totally baffled as to the connection between lactose intolerance and "science as religion". Should this really be under "Serious Discussions" without explaining that? |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: 19 |
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He's treating this lactose issue as though he were a religious fanatic: it changed his life, everybody should be doing it, it's your choice whether to harm or help yourself, not citing good evidence, etc. He thinks doing this demonstrates that science isn't a religion because science doesn't work that way. The problem is his premise is based on a mockery of religion. I don't adhere to such a view of religion.
Here's how science is a religion:
1) It has an ideology or doctrine which is followed, and in fact, it is probably more universal than the Catholic Church in its reach and adherents.
2) There are leaders of the faith who teach and promote the doctrine/ideology. They don't always agree (shocker), but they continue and the people still follow.
3) There are "conversion attempts" to bring people around to the enlightened way of thinking.
4) There is a practicing of the doctrine by putting it into practical use for the masses.
5) There are texts from which the people draw their doctrine/ideology and produce further advancements.
And that's just off the top of my head.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: 20 |
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I don't see science as anything like a religion. From earlier:
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| Thok wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| (secretly I am hoping this thread turns into something that shows the hypocrisy of science as a religion ) |
Science is a religion. It has two pieces of faith
1. The universe has rules that it follows.
2. Humanity can through experimentation and thought determine those rules over time, or at least find good approximations to those rules that will be gradually improved upon. |
From Chuck's personal site: http://chuckgaydos.homestead.com/files/index.html
| Quote: |
Favorite joke:
Why do we use inductive reasoning?
Because it's worked in the past. |
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"The universe has rules that it follows" ... I don't see this as a matter of faith, but a reasonable working premise, given that it certainly seems, from observation, to be true. Sure, it might not be true tomorrow, or beyond someplace where we can't see, but it isn't a matter of faith, in anything like a religious sense, to say we're going to proceed as if the laws will continue to hold.
And that we can discover these laws, or better approximations to them, also does not seem to be a matter of faith. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: 21 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| He's treating this lactose issue as though he were a religious fanatic: it changed his life, everybody should be doing it, it's your choice whether to harm or help yourself, not citing good evidence, etc. |
There was good evidence. It was written on golden plates as far as I could tell well researched. The internet is such a massive place I was unable to search for it-- searches lead to crappy articles that are no better then my own posts. Evidence is boring but through articles at http://scholar.google.com/ |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: 22 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
How do you know the lack of dairy is responsible? You say you altered another part of your diet, so the change in your body could be attributed to that. |
There has been a -very- direct connection between eating cheese and have runny noses. I will be fine for a week avoiding lactose. Then I will have nachos (I like nachos!). Then I will have a runny nose.
Repeat the nachos with other foods that have cheese/lactose several times. The connection is pretty clear. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| 3iff wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It was written by a leading scientist who had evidence |
No offence, MattV, but this sort of statement makes me cringe.
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I had the same feeling. I cringed when writing it because I knew no one would believe it. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: 24 |
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I think that your presentation (not just that line) was a bit of an issue here. You put it out there as "This is a test of whether or not you science nuts practice what you preach. If you do, then you'll follow me in avoiding all dairy, at least as a test."
I think that applies a whole lot more to smoking, say, than to avoiding dairy. And even that is not something worthy of a call to arms in faith-testing. Your evidence (assuming I accept it) did give me pause, since I have unusually small nasal passages and the slightest bit of swelling does cause them to close up. However, that is not very often, and I really, really love cheese. Even if you could show that every single case of my sinuses being closed is due to dairy products, I don't think that would be enough to get me to avoid them.
I didn't read the study, but I don't think you are claiming any long-term effects. So, frankly, as a lifestyle choice, I'm sticking with cheese. (Is the Dairy lobby listening? I expect money for this ringing endorsement!) |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject: 25 |
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| Stop smoking dope for a day and then post how this all relates to science as religion. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: 26 |
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Zag-- you believe you cannot give up eating cheese for a month? Or are you unwilling to accept that it might help you?
extro-- Do religions have leaders? |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: 27 |
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I know that I could, if I thought it to be worth it. I accept that it might help me a bit in being stuffed up less often. I don't think that you're claiming any more benefit than that, but I have to admit I haven't read it all carefully.
I'm making a choice that even if it succeeded in making me never stuffed up, it wouldn't be worth what I'd lose. If my punishment for eating delicious, gooey, melty cheese is the amount of stuffed up I occasionally suffer (plus a little flatulence), I accept the cost gladly, and grab another slice of pizza. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: 28 |
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| Zag wrote: |
I'm making a choice that even if it succeeded in making me never stuffed up, it wouldn't be worth what I'd lose. If my punishment for eating delicious, gooey, melty cheese is the amount of stuffed up I occasionally suffer, I accept the cost gladly, and grab another slice of pizza.
_________________
A Profound Truth which I have recently confirmed as fact: Melty cheese is always better than cold cheese. |
AMEN!
Is that allowed in here?
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: 29 |
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The funny part of the experience was giving up parts I loved. Like gooey cheese and sour cream. But my love for food didn't go away.
So the next question for Zag: why do you eat?
I eat and I enjoy eating. This hasn't changed at all. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: 30 |
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Thinking about something long enough brought back the right key words. The memory is a strange place...
Dr. Mark Hyman's Article |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: 31 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| extro-- Do religions have leaders? |
Why so cryptic?
Some do, I don't know that all do. Lots of things that aren't religions have leaders, or don't have leaders. Point? Are you equating leaders with religion?
Science, per se, does not have leaders. Sure, there are recognized accomplished persons in the field. The same is true of mathematics, bowling, rock and roll ...
And the connection to lactose intolerance? |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: 32 |
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Seriously, the dude's name is "Hyman." You can't trust that guy!
I got nothing. It was interesting, though I don't feel like following up on his research right now.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: 33 |
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The food pyramid is bogus. No news there.
BTW, not all dairy product are equal in lactose content. Drinking milk would bother me. Cheese is not a problem. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: 34 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| extro-- Do religions have leaders? |
Why so cryptic?
Some do, I don't know that all do. Lots of things that aren't religions have leaders, or don't have leaders. Point? Are you equating leaders with religion?
Science, per se, does not have leaders. Sure, there are recognized accomplished persons in the field. The same is true of mathematics, bowling, rock and roll ...
And the connection to lactose intolerance? |
I am trying to convince you of something. Skipping over the logical steps won't help me do that. I don't know if you feel science has leaders or not-- because you are correct in that they aren't clearly defined. Yes, there is a train of thought that will lead back to science is or isn't a religion.
So in Science, there are people who have worked very hard to know more about a subject then anyone else in the world. They have looked at immense amounts of data from every source they could find. They spent their life collecting and synthesizing data.
They make a recommendation that you, all by yourself, could make. They simplified their findings into 10 minutes so that you actually spend the time to understand it. But you must trust that they did more then dream up the evidence.
Which leads to the next question: are you willing to put in just a little effort to make your life better? |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: 35 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
The food pyramid is bogus. No news there.
BTW, not all dairy product are equal in lactose content. Drinking milk would bother me. Cheese is not a problem. |
I am glad that you appear to have come across this evidence on your own. How old were you at the time? |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: 36 |
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| (And I think that part of the reason I believe the article was from a time on the GL when extro was supporting a better diet. Other members were skeptical ) |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: 37 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| extro-- Do religions have leaders? |
Why so cryptic?
Some do, I don't know that all do. Lots of things that aren't religions have leaders, or don't have leaders. Point? Are you equating leaders with religion?
Science, per se, does not have leaders. Sure, there are recognized accomplished persons in the field. The same is true of mathematics, bowling, rock and roll ...
And the connection to lactose intolerance? |
I am trying to convince you of something. Skipping over the logical steps won't help me do that. |
I'm not buying that being cryptic is helping. Say where you're going with this.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| I don't know if you feel science has leaders or not-- because you are correct in that they aren't clearly defined. |
If there were a clue about the relevance of the question, it would likely be much easier to answer whether science "has leaders" in the relevant sense being asked.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Yes, there is a train of thought that will lead back to science is or isn't a religion. |
I can't wait to find out which one.
| MatthewV wrote: |
So in Science, there are people who have worked very hard to know more about a subject then anyone else in the world. They have looked at immense amounts of data from every source they could find. They spent their life collecting and synthesizing data.
They make a recommendation that you, all by yourself, could make. They simplified their findings into 10 minutes so that you actually spend the time to understand it. But you must trust that they did more then dream up the evidence. |
I don't have to trust. I could assume there's a huge conspiracy of generations of scientists claiming to have observed things they haven't, and who silence anyone who attempts to reveal their deception.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Which leads to the next question: are you willing to put in just a little effort to make your life better? |
Really? It leads to that question? OK, I'll play along. My answer: It depends. How much and what kind of effort to make my life how much better, and in what way? |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: 38 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| (And I think that part of the reason I believe the article was from a time on the GL when extro was supporting a better diet. Other members were skeptical ) |
Interestingly, maybe this spam-resurrected topic: http://greylabyrinth.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=510661#510661
(It had a spam link sig, which I edited out with my new powers) |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:08 am Post subject: 39 |
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I'm not buying that being cryptic is helping. Say where you're going with this. -- I am sorry but I have observational evidences that people cannot stay on topic that long. My posts are, and will continue to stay on the larger topic but I am unable to predict how you will respond and what I need to reply to.
| Quote: |
| I don't have to trust. |
Then we will never get anywhere. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:32 am Post subject: 40 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| I am sorry but I have observational evidences that people cannot stay on topic that long. My posts are, and will continue to stay on the larger topic but I am unable to predict how you will respond and what I need to reply to. |
This really makes no sense. You seem unable to even say what the topic is, let alone stay on it.
I understand the technique of asking questions to lead someone in a certain direction, but keeping them totally in the dark about where that is makes it difficult for them to understand what the questions are really asking, as they have no context within which to make sense of things.
You ask, cryptically, "are you willing to put in just a little effort to make your life better?". I could say 'yes', then when you tell me what you have in mind, it may be 'no'. Is it really helpful to obscure what, if anything, you mean? I do get out of bed each morning. That's just a little effort, and I think it's fair to say it makes my life better, so clearly the answer is yes.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't have to trust. |
Then we will never get anywhere. |
You mean your argument fails unless I assume your false premise? ("But you must trust that they [scientists] did more then dream up the evidence"). |
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