Diplomacy 2013: This should be a 7-player mafia game

[Jedo the Jedi]

Who's in? I have never hosted a game on www.webdiplomacy.net, so if somebody experienced would like to do so (to get all of the settings correct to how it is normally played here), then that would be great. I suppose you can also tell me the settings or each person can vote for what rules they would like. Whatever.

Game link: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=117083
Password: RockTheCasbah

Playing:
1. Jedo (in)
2. Zag (in)
3. groza (in)
4. Amb (in)
5. kisa (in)
6. Monk (in)
7. spyrl (in)
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Jedo the Jedi]

For the record, I've only played this enough times to know the mechanics, but I'm not very good at such games. Also, Zag has already declared that he will...crush us, was it? So keep those things in mind.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[groza528]

I'll play. And I don't mind setting it up either.
The two major decisions we have to make before setting it up are:
1) How long do we want for turns? A week is customary around here I think, but keep in mind that will apply to retreats and build seasons as well (if everyone finalizes their orders before that then the game will progress). The site allows anywhere between 5 minutes and 10 days per turn.
2) Whether we wish for players to be anonymous. Doing so might help out Zag since we won't know who to attack first. Then again, if there are players who are less experienced that would like pointers, it's harder for us to find you.

Other than that I'll set it up for a 10-point buy-in for a friendly game and password protect it so that anyone from the GL but nobody outside the GL can play.
Also just as a heads-up to people who haven't played there, because of the limitations of the system, it is not possible to submit illegal orders (just invalid supports) so if you intended to use that as a ploy you're out of luck.
Also, unless they have changed something since I played there last, which was probably over a year ago, it is not possible to send a "conference message" i.e. a message involving three-six parties. You can send messages to single players or to the whole group, but not subsets.

[Zag]

Seriously, the last time I played was our last abortive attempt, here. But I used to play a fair bit, many years ago.

I'm happy to play either anonymously or openly. 1 week sounds like more than enough, and should be fine as long as we all agree to submit our retreats and builds quickly.

[Amb]

I'll play.

1 week per turn is fine.

Im happy anonymous or known. If known, I might have to really be nice to Jedo

[isauteikisa]

Any tolerance for absolute noobs in this game? (Never played).
_________________
[VXCL] 075-1DR
I'm male, people.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm only a step up from an "absolute noob," so I don't really mind.

I didn't think I wanted to play anonymous, but considering how easily I would be crushed if I was targeted specifically by any of you, it seems like a better option.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[groza528]

I'm ok with total noob as long as you know what you're walking into, which is "a fairly lengthy game where dishonesty is not abnormal and emotions can run pretty high."
Personally I don't like to target newbies... I walked all over a newbie the first time I soloed, but I didn't feel good about it afterward. Any game you play with newbies the goal should be "keep them interested enough to play again."
But on the other hand, I also don't like to make my decisions based on what I know about the players themselves, which is why I often prefer anonymous.

I've compiled a list of tips for newbie Dip players (haven't really updated it in a few years.) These are the guidelines I try to play by. Read the rules at Diplomacy-Archive.com before you start playing. There are a number of good strategy articles there too.

General strategy:
- Avoid a two-front war. Players in the center of the board have the best chance of winning fast because they can expand quickly. They also have the best chance of losing fast because they can be attacked from many sides at once.
- In the early game, shoot for second. Whoever is the clear leader will usually get jumped on by the other players, and will continue to be pounced long after they cease to be dangerous.
- Look ahead. If your neighbor is about to be gobbled up and you're probably next, warn him, defend him, do whatever you can to make him serve as a buffer for as long as possible.
- Keep your opponents fighting. The more they fight with each other, the less they will fight with you.

Negotiation:
- Talk to EVERYONE, especially at the beginning. Someone clear across the board might hear something you need to know. Someone who's slaughtering you might still be up for negotiating if you can make a good offer, or if you can convince them they're making a mistake.
- Don't try to go it alone. A strong, lone tactician would get torn apart by a pack of dimwits.
- Peace is better than war. Inevitably you will have to fight against somebody, but the more people you keep happy, the easier it will be. Make a deal instead of an attack.
- Act in your own best interest. That doesn't mean you can't be nice to earn someone's trust, but don't commit suicide to be liked.
- Expect other players to act in their own best interest. If you want a favor, make sure the other guy knows what he's getting out of it. If somebody offers to do something that doesn't seem to be in their best interest, there's a good chance they're not telling you everything.
- Be careful not to fall into the trap of assuming the LAST person you spoke to is the best-informed.

Tactics:
- Plan for what the board *will* look like, not for what it looks like now. In a 50-50 situation, attackers are usually tempted to attack the empty space; likewise defenders are likely to cover the empty space. It's often easier to sneak into a center as they're leaving.
- Use position to your advantage. Sometimes it's worth losing a center temporarily if you can get at your opponent's soft underbelly.
- Fall is more important than spring. Don't worry about losing ground in spring if you can get it back in fall. Look at position in the spring and centers in the fall. Just like in volleyball, you need a good set for a good spike.
- Planned bounces can be your best friend. If you bounce yourself or another player deliberately, you can defend three spaces with two units.
- Decide what your opponent's best move is, THEN decide what your best move is.

Stabs:
- If planning to stab an ally, plot it carefully. Stealing one center while your ally is deciding where to go next is probably not a good stab. Flanking him for two or three and a good position is much better. Try to stab your former ally when he cannot recover from it.
- Watch your own back. Try not to leave yourself in a position where you cannot recover from a stab, no matter how trustworthy you think your ally is.
- Beware of silence. Players often become very quiet when they plan to stab someone, because they feel guilty, or fear that they might give something away. If you plan to make a stab yourself, keep the conversation going
- Don't hold a grudge. If you get stabbed, it's only because your ally thought he was acting in his own best interest. Obviously make it as difficult as possible for him, but if he wants to make peace later on, give it honest consideration. NEVER carry an alliance or a grudge for reasons external to the game.

[Amb]

Having learned the hard way, this is good advice: "Obviously make it as difficult as possible for him, but if he wants to make peace later on, give it honest consideration"

[Zag]

Good advice, groza!

You missed this: Go download RealPolitik and use it. This is a Diplomacy simulator that lets you run through what-if scenarios until your eyes bleed. It is so important to be thinking at least a full year ahead, that a tool like this is essential for an online game. When I play, it is extremely rare for me to see anyone on the board make a move that I haven't already anticipated and have at least some plan of my response, and this tool is a big reason why.

[groza528]

One more thing I forgot: Consider these five endgame conditions for a single player. There is some debate as to what is the preferred order, but I believe the order I present is the one most advanced players adhere to.

1. Solo Victory I think all players agree that this is the best possible outcome, though some are less sure about the "possible" part.
2. Part of a Draw If nobody achieves solo victory then all surviving players form an equal part in the draw. It doesn't matter if you have 17 centers or 1, you're on equal footing. Most games between advanced players end in a draw.
3. Elimination The difference between 3 and 4 is the most contentious, but I think there's no shame in going down swinging, especially if you learn what you can do better next time.
4. Survival I *do* believe there is shame in allowing somebody else to win. If one player is getting close to victory, everybody should be working against them. Sometimes it's still too late. But teaming up with the leader to become "second" means to me that you are *leading* everybody to failure. Second place doesn't exist in my book, which is why if I start the game it will be winner-take-all.
5. Civil Disorder This occurs when a player leaves the game before their part in it is done. Most often it is the result of somebody giving up. This completely ruins the game for everyone else. Most of the time it gives whomever has driven you to give up a huge advantage. We understand real life gets in the way, but if that happens at least try to let us know and maybe we can pause, or look for a sitter/replacement.
As an example, I once played a game as Austria where I was getting ripped apart by Russia and Italy. I fought like the dickens and by the time I was down to one army (in Moscow) *Russia* actually went into civil disorder. I didn't have enough power to take over any of his territory, which meant that Italy swept through the eastern Mediterranean and got himself up to 17 supply centers. The only reason he didn't win is because I used my last army to defend the unordered Russian fleet in Sevastopol, but that one army that just sat in Moscow for three years that I could have given up secured me an equal spot in the draw instead of giving the game to Italy.

[The Potter]

I'll be a replacement but I have little interest in being a starting player.
_________________
Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[Jedo the Jedi]

It's less preferable to play the ancient map, but how long should we wait to fill up?
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Amb]

We could try invites to GLers who may enjoy the game? eg Lexprod, Dented Ford, Wordcross

[Dented Ford]

I'd really love to but I know I'll have absolutely no chance to give it the attention it needs and deserves. Sorry.

[Amb]

I'd be happy to have us 5, and have 2 strangers join us.

[groza528]

I would also prefer that rather than Ancient Med

[Jedo the Jedi]

I hadn't thought about that option. That seems fine.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

I'd rather play an alternate map than invite strangers.

[groza528]

I guess I'm ok with an alternate map, though for some reason I just don't care for ancient med.
vdiplomacy is a "semi-affiliated" site (by which I mean it's not actually connected but they have a fair number of overlapping players and most of the same code) that has several variant maps. Only a handful are built for five players. Their list does include a variant on the classic map that allows you to decide (or randomize, or any combination) which countries are playable. My first vote would be for that one.

[Amb]

ok! Lets get started

[Amb]

Groza, you seem to know about the site: Can you set up something appropriate so we can get started?

[groza528]

Not until we agree on what we're playing. I pinged Zag for thoughts about which variant to play but no response yet.

[Zag]

Hmmm. Did you PM me? I don't see it.

Anyway, I'm up for whatever scenario everyone else wants. I'd prefer to keep it just among us and not invite strangers, but that's my only real preference. I'd be willing, also, to hound others to join us. For instance, I know that there are a few people who only hang out in the Mafia forum, and they might be willing to come over.

[groza528]

I sent you a message on facebook actually because I happened to see you there.
Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with not inviting strangers. I would *prefer* if we could get a full game, so if you can dredge up some scummers then great, but if not then vdip does have a handful of five-player variants:
1) Standard board but with two countries disabled - I'd be willing to give it a go, but I'm concerned that it would be unfairly biased toward the neighbors of the empty powers (note: they do begin as neutrals, not as CD).
2) South America - looks pretty promising; not enough statistics to say whether it's balanced but it appears Chile might have a rough go.
3) World War II - looks pretty normal. My only gripe is that many powers start off with split units which is a little trickier.
4) Ancient Med - I personally don't care for this map too much but I really can't say why; will play if it's the preference.
5) Dutch Revolt - Advise against. There are too many special rules and complicated board regions. I would probably never play this map by choice and would certainly never subject newbies to it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I just want something close to normal since I'm not really very experienced. The desire to play was actually pretty surprising. Other than that, I'm cool.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Undercover Monk]

any room for little old me???
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Amb]

Awesome!!!!!

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't know about that. I don't want to carry over all of the mafia rivalries.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[groza528]

That's why it will be anonymous
(btw, does anyone have strong feelings one way or the other toward anonymous? I prefer it myself, but not enough to trump the crowd.)

[spyrl]

I can play if you need me to. It's been a while since I played (once) so I'd consider myself a noob too
_________________
"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head." Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
Discworld Mafia is here!

[Jedo the Jedi]

If anonymous is better for inexperienced players, then that's probably a good idea since around half of the people are inexperienced.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[isauteikisa]

oh hell, this filled up! I'd go for anonymous myself, though I'm sure the noobs will be outed in short order.
_________________
[VXCL] 075-1DR
I'm male, people.

[groza528]

Realistically, I think the experienced players will pick out the inexperienced players whether anonymous or not (unless we play dumb ourselves ) The anonymous is more to prevent people from, consciously or unconsciously, making decisions based on what they know about the players.

[groza528]

The game is now created. 7-day turns, but they will resolve faster if everybody finalizes their orders. Anonymous players, winner-take-all, 10pt buy-in.
Starting locations will be distributed randomly (this is not an option of their code.)

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=117083

The password is RockTheCasbah and you have a week to sign up.

[groza528]

Oh, and post here when you register for the game so we know who to chase down

[isauteikisa]

/registered
_________________
[VXCL] 075-1DR
I'm male, people.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Registered. I think I'm Russia.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[groza528]

I presume that was meant as a joke (esp after all the "anonymous" talk), but powers will not be assigned until all seven players are registered.

[Amb]

Registered. I think I'm Fiji.