Heroes and Villains mafia - The town claim victory

[Amb]

"Jadesmar hammering is scummy in so much that he wouldn't know it was going to happen"

What I mean is: He wouldnt know the TGC scenario was about to happen.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, points 1 and 3 were in tandem. If TGC had enough time to clear the votes, jadesmar's hammer obviously wasn't that quick. You can argue coincidence, but I don't see why you would.

Point 4 was in response to Zag arguing jadesmar should have voted him earlier if jadesmar really felt Zag was scum. My point is that maybe what I wrote earlier on that page was convincing to jadesmar just like something on that page was convincing to Sentran and raekuul who switched their votes "suddenly."

Overall, I guess I can only say I never give that much credence to the scumminess of the hammer vote. I mean, everybody knows at least half of you are going to come down on the person for it every time it happens whether there was a consensus about the lynchee's scumminess or not, so it's pretty much the stupidest thing a scum could ever do. I'm pretty sure I've received flak for it when the only reason no hammer had been made was so we could keep talking, and I placed it because the discussion had wound down.

Well, I guess I better review different people so I can put my vote down and say I at least offered somebody else for when you guys lynch jadesmar.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Undercover Monk]

[Zag]

Ok. I don't quite agree that none of them were past the "sick of this" test, but you've convinced me. unvote: jadesmar.

Also, you've convinced me with this one

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, I've looked over the more background players (raekuul, Garou, and jadesmar), and I'm settling with a vote: Garou_Kinfolk.

Reason: He really dropped off after Zag and I became the focus, and his contributions since have mostly been supplying information. That's an easy scum play where you're just bringing up things so other people can have it close at hand to use in their arguments--vote/post counts, "here's a scenario," "this person's ISO doesn't show x," etc. Also, the recurring reference to Perpentach as a lurker is another easy scum tactic where you don't have to take a stance. In fact, Garou hasn't made a stance on any of the big issues in a while.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Finally finished catching up. It's been a busy week IRL.

Anyway. I don't really have a read on too much right now. TGC using his power today kinda screwed the town for now as far as an information lynch goes. I still feel as if Zag is town. He hasn't been playing like he's scum.

At this point I'd be comfortable with votingTGC because he's now vanilla and at worst, we lose a townie with no power(s). At best we lynch scum. I'm actually comfortable enough with it at this point that I'll:

vote TGC

And yes Jedo, I like to post information posts so they're easily accessible for everyone. It saves time so myself and others who want to know it have it on hand without having to spend a lot of time looking up or compiling it.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Amb]

Vote Garou

Far far too opportunistic.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm not knocking it in principle, but when it's almost all a person is doing, it's an easy way to appear to be participating and yet not bringing anything to the table. That's something scum want to do.

I confess, it's just a Day 1 thing. It is suspicious in my eyes, but not being able to lynch Zag and see those connections is inhibiting. The field for inspection is limited. You, like TGC, have your town posts and your scum posts. Both of you have had posts where I said to myself, "That reads like town."

I also have to admit that your TGC proposal immediately struck me as a decent idea, but that fact makes me suspicious. For all my blustering about being willing to lynch town Day 1 because that's the odds, that still doesn't mean I'm aiming to lynch a townie. Plus, I really feel we should do our best to hit scum today because of the smaller format.

I'm sure TGC's flip would provide good interaction analysis (some with Zag, definitely with myself and Monk, a little with Perpentach and jadesmar), but is that added to the null read and the fact that he is either vanilla or scum enough to justify my vote? He's high profile though. The reason people like Zag and myself usually survive for a while despite our scumminess is that ultimately we are going to give ourselves away or somebody is going to be clearing us with their powers. I'm not saying town should let scum go, but we're always just town enough that it's worth it to keep us around in case we really are. I feel like TGC is sitting in this area (though his useful town contribution is currently shit).

Garou on the other hand doesn't really read like that. He started out in the spotlight, but he's quickly blended back in. I feel like he could have stayed under the radar if I hadn't brought him up. When thinking about the major discussion today (Zag v. Jedo), he's hardly a byword. If I was objectively looking at that and teasing out the interactions, I would mention myself, Zag, Monk, and TGC. Garou wouldn't even warrant a thought. That's what's causing me to be uneasy.

Well, typing all that out, I'm happy to stay where I am for now. I'm sure it will keep rolling around in my head and distracting me from the studies I should be doing, and maybe a new thought will occur to me. I encourage people to consider the things I've said and voice their own opinions.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I should really learn to preview edit so I can catch simul-posts.

I feel a little better seeing Amb has a similar notion to myself. Only time will tell if that's because we're both town or he's distancing (or I am for that matter).
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

@Jedo. I would have made my last post whether you had brought attention to me or not. I really just hadn't had time to read or post the past few days and I don't like posting unless I'm up to date on what has been posted. If your looking for my reads that I do have, they haven't really changed since I posted them a while ago, but I'll post them again just so everyone knows where I stand at this point.

Jedo: neutral
Zag: townish
UMonk: townish
Jadesmar: slightly townish
TGC: Slightly Scummy
Perpentach/Amb: Townish
Sentran: Neutral
Raekuul: Neutral
Me: Town ofcourse :p

Have to get back to work now.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Amb]

So the only person you have on your list as slightly scummish, is the one player whose ability is actually proven? And a player who used it on a claimed swiss army townie.

If TGC is mafia and Zag town - Zag is a threat to him. He could easily have held off and let Zag die and not looked bad for it.

If TGC is mafia and Zag Mafia - Then they are playing the same gambit that Zag tried to pull with MNO recently. It's possible. Probably not likely.

If TGC is town, then regardless of Zags alignment - he just saved his life.

In the scenarios above, the most likely outcome is that TGC is town. And you return to suspecting no one.

[3iff]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Undercover Monk]

Regarding the TGC mafia Zag town bit I do feel it is unlikely BUT TGC did admit he saved Zag because he felt he would be on the block next ( a huge clue that perhaps they are both mafia.) perhaps he got so sure that if Zag were to go he would be next that he wanted Zag as an easy lynch tomorow and then when Zag did flip town he could pull a huge I told you so. Its def WIFOM but it is a possible explanation.

However I really do think a garou lynch makes a lot of sense. He did kinda seem to stir up a hornets nest (though maybe not one of his own making) then slink back to hide in the bushes. And though I would love to punish TGC for making a horrible move regardless of allignment. There is enough doubt to make me want to wait it out another day or 2 since in all honesty I will probably be leading the charge on a Zag lynch tomorow.

Vote: Garou_Kinfolk for information sake alone. Most of the town has a nul read for me.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[The Great Crep'er]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

L-2 already. It comes up so fast in small games.

Anyway. Since I'm at this point, and the hammer tends to come pretty quickly, I'll do more of a hint then a claim. I know it won't matter to some since it's day 1, so this is for all of the others.

My power/ability would NEVER be given to a scum in a game of this size. It would make it too unbalanced in favor of the scum. I will admit that it can/would/has been given to scum in larger games though. I'd claim my character also, but that's pretty pointless with a theme like this. We'll just all have to wait until hammer/deadline for that.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[The Great Crep'er]

[Undercover Monk]

And Im going to have to ask that we not pm other players during a game. The idea that past mafia games are irrelevant is ludicrous your "Alliance" buddy has used it several times while attacking Jedo. And it has been used several times to discredit several arguments. Heck I just used it last page to prove that hammers (even quick ones) on day 1 are not necesarilly a scum tell.


Everytime TGC posts I want to lynch him. This latest aside to Garou just screams scum. He handwaves away the argument he knows will come and then just takes a cheap shot and twists what Garou said. Its an argument that continues to fall on deaf ears and its important so let me try once and for all to show why claiming on day 1 is bad.

Possible scenario
well intentioned townie at L-1
well intentioned townie claims Sherlock Holmes cop
bandwagon dissolves
lying scum is at L-1
lying scum with nothing to lose claims Indiana Jones townie
bandwagon dissolves
this continues till 3 or 4 power roles have been revealed
at night mafia kill sherlock holmes
stupid town looses all their power roles
mafia wins

Better scenario
smart townie is at L-1
smart townie argues how his actions are not scummy without revealing his super awesome mega sexy role that the mafia would love to kill.
someone gets lynched mafia have to guess who has the good roles and end up killing the useless mason
smart town keeps their cop alive and wins game


TGCs perfect world
stupid scum is at L-1
stupid scum claims hannibal lecter mafia godfather
Town lynches claimed scum
town wins cause scum are stupid AND clearly never get a SAFE CLAIM.



The risk of losing the cop by lynching is worth it to keep all other power roles a secret. The cop would die anyway on night 1 because the mafia will not keep a claimed cop alive. You could argue the doc would protect him but we can not be sure a doc is even in the game. There was no doc in SURVIVOR mafia. Bottom line dont role claim on day 1. If someone does roleclaim ignore them they could be lying. If they explain why their actions are not scummy then feel free to unvote but claims should be ignored on Day 1 period.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Undercover Monk]

Also I will quit the game if anyone pms me about the current game and that includes any debates about mafia theory while this game is going on. Why, TGC, are you encouraging people to communicate outside the game thread. Im pretty sure that would get you modkilled.

Also you are not the reason town won TGC. The reason the town won was because Sentran claimed Bob after jadesmar did thus ensuring both him and rm would die very quickly. It took you to LoL to finally get Mackay. So don't act like a freakin hero cause you were not. You got lucky. The game while not perfect was balanced enough to go to Final 3 which is every mod's goal in balancing a game. At least I don't abandon my game half-way through. :cough Amb mafia cough: So dont go insulting someone else's set-up you arrogant prick
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Jedo the Jedi]

I was dead! How the fuck could I have mounted an attack against rm with Amb if I wasn't around? Now you might say I came back and could have done it then, but I was consciously starting the game with a clean slate. So, you killed the person who is according to Zag very persuasive and good at manipulating votes. (Don't let the fact that he uses that in reference to when i am scum make you think I'm not also good at doing it as town--I'm great at whipping up support for my lynches.) Therefore, I couldn't have helped lynch rm.

Now, I overlooked you thinking the game was unbalanced. That does explain why you hold so fast to your own superiority there. However, almost everybody else believed it was balanced. (Their qualm was with a mechanic that could have happened but wasn't actually exploited.) So, I really don't know why you continue to hold to that. In fact, from your perspective, I could argue that you should have let yourself die so the game would be balanced. Sheesh. (And I did acknowledge that Mackay escaped my scumdar, but I also came around to it in the dead thread before she was lynched. Maybe you should read that stuff.)

To assist Monk's analysis--that is, reduce some of the sarcasm--the scum aren't going to claim something bad. I think Zag's claim would be a really great fake claim. (He doesn't have to produce cop results for every night and somehow explain why the mafia are keeping him alive all the way to Lylo.) Scum know there are people like you, TGC--most players--who are so worried about lynching a power role that the scum just claim doc or cop and save their ass while the town unvotes. It's an easy thing to do; and every day the scum stay alive is another day they even the odds.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[The Great Crep'er]

And that's about all I needed to hear for me to get offended. I didn't attack you personally based on the balance of the game, all I said was that it was unbalanced because one role negated all mafia actions in one night. Pobody's Nerfect. There were protective idols involved, votes-connected, and other additional mafia powers that factor into this argument, so don't use the Sentran deal to refute that. And realize that my continued stay in the game didn't exclude Jedo and Amb from going after rm like he said they would.

The remark didn't need to enter the game, period. Yet it did. I apologize if what I did still eats at you, but the reason I'm here at all is to start anew, and apparently that can't happen until I eat some more shit for what I did in the past. I don't blame you for hating me for it, but it is confusing considering you seemed to be all on board for my entrance into Survivor Mafia.

The game's gotten way too personal, for me anyways, so I feel like there should be some sort of hiatus to cool down before I return to this. @Mod: I don't want to flake, and I don't intend to. I'll return after a few days, but if you can't accept that, I understand. I'll honor the agreement, because I know what it's like to run a game that no one wants to succeed.

Unvote

[Jedo the Jedi]

And now it's personal...

Still, I want to remind you that this protracted discussion about the Survivor Mafia game is not just about theory or trying to browbeat you, TGC. I'm trying to use that as an example that roles claimed on the first day are 1) sometimes powerful fake claims by scum designed to cause the town to unvote and 2) not the lynchpin power necessary for the town's survival. My discussion about this is very much based around what has happened in this game.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

MOD: With your permission, can we lock the thread for a 24 hour period and get a 1 day extension on the deadline as a result? I believe tempers are running too high and need a short time to cool off.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Jedo the Jedi]

3iff can obviously do whatever he thinks is necessary, but I don't think there's any need to stop the game. Most of the town is actually unencumbered by the personal comments and still needs to weigh in on the issues. Besides, we really just need a reminder:

[Sentran]

Once again I am alone in my votes and reads. I have so many posts from over the weekend that I feel the desire to respond to that I can't POSSIBLY get to all of them without multi-page wall posts. Here are a few of the highlights.

TGC (or whoever asked it): JOAT stands for Jack-of-all-Trades, aka Swiss Army Townie.

TGC, re post 256: Because of this post alone, Unvote, Vote: The Great Crep'er. I disliked the comments of play better when they were first brought up. Playstyle is subjective, and telling somenoe to play better is about as useful to telling them to be taller. Scumreads are also subjective, and by claiming that better play would not have seen them lynched, you are perpetrating a falsehood. The scumreads are there for some people, whether the player is town or scum. Scum are actively trying not to make scumtells, and townies are actively trying to catch scum. Whether or not the person is scum has nothing to do with whether or not other people will find reasons to vote them. Some are fabricated, most are not.
Same post, second paragraph: Although not directed at me, commenting that another player should have read more closely is a pet peeve of mine. Finally, looking at previous games provides a pattern of play. Those can occasionally be used to the scum's advantage to paint townies as scum, but more often can help the townies to find scum.
Oh, you can always add in the comments about PMs (bad idea) and my previous thoughts about why a scum TGC would protect a town Zag. Not saying that it's the case, but the possibility exists.

Garou, teasing at a role without claiming is baiting, in the hopes that the town will be easily swayed into not voting you. It makes you appear more scummy, and moved you up in my scum-o-meter.

Pre-post edit: I agree with garou that a cooldown may be in order. Tempers have flared way off the scale for what is reasonable.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Amb]

Agreed. Please calm it down people. These sort of posts are exactly why I don't play on mafiascum which takes the game far too seriously.

[3iff]

As tempers are getting frayed, I shall remove the deadline for now and ask people to calm down.

The rules include...(I see Jedo has pointed these out)

• Don't be more of a jerk than absolutely necessary.
• Don't take anything personally (outside the game that is). If someone is being a jerk inside the game, it might be part of their role.

and DON'T discuss this game via PM with other people, unless it's me.

Finally, try to stop digging up indiscretions from previous games.

Thankyou.

[Undercover Monk]

TGC Im sorry my last post was overly defensive and totally crossed a line. I wasn't bashing you for abandoning the Amb game and I was genuinely excited to have you back and still am. I reacted badly to critiscism. I felt at the time you were going after me unfairly. Its the diference between saying someone hit some wrong notes and saying they are a bad singer. I snapped and for that Im sorry to every player that does not help us lynch scum. So chalk up post 263 to loosing my temper. But I stand by post 262 about claims on day 1. (Even if it was a little on the sarcastic side. I am up for a Garou or TGC lynch. Thats where I am at sorry again for the disruption.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Amb]

In the meanwhile, I don't think that any of our leads is particularly great. But of all of them, I'm happiest with a Garou lynch.

[Zag]

Could we get a vote count?

I'm ok with a Garou lynch. I did find his non-claim to be a little suspicious, but otherwise have no real opinion on him.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

[Amb]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I think that was a good restatement of Amb's case against you--as well it should be!--and my own reasons include his to some extent. Mine is that you haven't taken a stance, and you seem to be hitting from the sidelines without ever stepping into the spotlight. That's shady. You could probably give some sort of response about it being "just Day 1," but obviously other people have found things here on Day 1 to take a stance on. These are good things the town can look back on in later days. As I said when talking about you, if I were to look back at the big events of this day, I probably wouldn't even think of you and that's not really a good thing.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Currently working on the rebuttal. Thanks for replaying. I'm also planning on going back and re-reading the day so far... if the day lasts that long.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[3iff]

Latest vote count.

[raekuul]

I'm going to wait for the rebuttal before putting Garou at L-1. If the town wants to lynch him without me, then I wash my hands of this. If the town decides to wait for me, then I'll take the risk of hammering a townie who clearly does not want to play.

I know that I haven't said all that much this day, either. I've been able to stay off of most people's scumdars for the time being (I wonder how that will change with day 2), which is where I'm happy being.

Garou: Make a name claim anyway. You don't have to give away your role, It'll probably be obvious what role you've got anyway - and it won't be difficult to suss out fake claims once we hit the mass-claiming stage.