Heroes and Villains mafia - The town claim victory

[Zag]

That's really an excellent job of mis-stating my argument.

1. What haven't I answered?
2. Your experience is obviously only in your own head. In reality, scum are far more amenable to flowing with the wind than townies are. If I were scum, I would have backed down a long time ago (and probably wouldn't have said anything in the first place).
3. I have hardly continued to "pursue" Jedo. I have stated many times that I think this is a really minor thing, and could easily have been just the joke that you all seem to think it was. It's just all there is, so far, that I've seen that indicates one way or another.

You saw in your own game how I picked up on a scum tell that no one else thought was significant, and I was 100% correct. Now that one was something I felt strongly about, whereas this one I don't, especially. But I didn't back down on that one, either.


Post-preview edit: It occurs to me that this question might be what you think I haven't answered, though I believe I have.

"How can you find the first post he made in the game suspicious"

Easy. Because the scum are scum from before their first post. They know it's just random voting time, but they also already know they are scum and they are already thinking about that as they are trying to sound like townies who are just making random posts. I look at every post, imagine myself as both a townie and a scum, and ask myself if it is something I would say in either role, in that situation. Even joking around, even in the very first post, a scum Jedo would be more likely to say that than a townie Jedo. Not a ton more likely, not a smoking gun, no 'whoop whoop,' just a little more likely.

Feel free to disagree, but don't call me scum for having an opinion. And look back on the games when I actually am scum and ask yourself whether or not I show any real opinions early on the first day.

[3iff]

Day 1, 9 alive, 5 to lynch
Deadline: none set
Current Vote Count (to post 81)

[Undercover Monk]

Well thank you for the direct response at least now watch I destroy your arguments one by one.

1. You answered my argument fine post edit. I will argue the point further down the post.
2. Oh really did Mackay IN THE VERY LAST GAME GO WITH THE FLOW. No she went after Cult like a lunatic. While in general you are correct the scum dont want to draw attention to themselve they also cant be seen lurking or lying. So if they take a stand on something they can t very well back out of it. Scum would be scared of flip-flopping so no I dont expect you to change your argument now.
3. You have continued to pursue Jedo. Your vote is still on him Also you were not town in my game you were cult. Im sure you would have gone after any lynch that was not your own. Besides I never said you were not a great player just that in this case your argument makes no sense.

As far as the scum are scum argument goes, I agree but I don't think that scum lie and plot on every post. Most of us play every game and the cast really doesnt change so if someone says or does something out of character we pick up on it. MNOWAX is forgiven for doing randomn things. Deception and TGC post walls and walls of texts (and are apparently ok with lying as town). Me and Jedo will not roleclaim on day 1. jadesmar will be lynched or killed by day 2 So obviously sometimes there is no difference in what a scum or town says. For instance how would you react to someone using a dice tag is there a scum tell one way or the other. What if I voted Amb in my first post (we do have a friendly rivalry). What about the argument for/against roleclaiming on day 1 or No lynch or Lynch all liars. Is a player likely to change their stance on these issues even when scum NO.

Jedo and I have both confirmed that his post was an inside joke from a discussion in the dead thread of the previous game. I dont think that post gives us any info one way or the other.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I want to state in response to Zag's most recent post that I actually practice a sort of "scum buddy amnesia" when I'm scum. If I can manage to see that my role is scum without seeing who my mates are, I will operate that way on Day 1 because I know how that knowledge seeps out into my posts. Hell, if I could start the Day without looking at my role at all, I would do that. The point of this is so I can attack people for what a more neutral, uninformed set of eyes would see.

Now here is the thing that bugs me about Zag: He likes to believe that he is one way as scum and another as a townie--or at least to claim that's how he operates--but we all know that if he operated like that we would be able to nail him as scum more easily. I think the fact that he's even suggesting this is how he operates, and is therefore not scum this game, is suspicious. I'm quite certain he has argued that he tries to play each game the same. I'll hear a rebuttal first (I could be misinterpreting), but I think this is where my vote will move.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

Hmm. When I play scum, I definitely know who my buddies are. I do try to give the appearance of playing the same, but I don't actually do it -- not quite. In fact, I'm slightly more passive and agreeable as scum. The last time that we were scum buddies together, how many people had me on the top of their list for townies? I never seem to have that when I'm actually a townie.

By the way, you reluctantly being convinced to vote for me even though there is not anything new, that's scummy. As with the other thing, it's just a little bit of evidence, nothing really damning, but there it is. If you had just said OMGUS and voted on that basis, I would have found that less scummy.

But you're still only just peeking up above the others, and I won't be surprised to find I'm all wrong about you.

[Sentran]

Jedo brings up a very valid point in post 85, and I agree with it. In fact, if you look at the Survivor Mafia game, you will notice that Mackay and I had an argument on day 1. This was completely spontaneous and unintentional. I had read briefly through my role description, but I went through the majority of day 1 having forgotten who my scum buddies were. Don't think I'm ignoring the implications that the ones arguing (Zag and UM) could BOTH be scum. We've discussed the possibility of the scum railroading the day 1 arguments with something meaningless to keep the town from getting any good reads and good information. It's a possibility, but I'm not getting that feeling from the current argument. Is anyone else getting a stronger scumread than I?

Zag, deciding to "end" an argument sounds similar to Deception's "I'm not discussing game theory with you" comments. Those same comments have a tendency to get him lynched. Just something to consider.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Jedo the Jedi]

[jadesmar]

[The Great Crep'er]

Firstly, I'd like to say that I want the previous game to be left in the past and stay there. I'm looking at you, UM. Just because I lie as town under special circumstances in one game does not mean I will lie as town my whole damn mafia playing career. Saying such is hasty. So it should not be labeled as a "consistent quality regardless of alignment".

Secondly, I'd like to clarify my vote on Jedo, because I feel like eventually people are going to think my pre-game vengeance on Jedo is the reason for my vote being maintained when it should be made obvious that this isn't the case.

Let me outline it for you:
-Jedo makes a joke post
-UM almost immediately lashes out at those who go after it*
-Jedo joins in and almost immediately a large barrage of posts come out defending the post that was originally "nothing but a joke". The post that was treated as nothing but a lighthearted matter, wouldn't have elicited such a ferocious and long winded argument. That is what makes me think Garou was onto something. I think there is only so long you can go on defending something so powerfully and maintain the lightheartedness of the initial post. Zag may be scum for all we know, but so could Jedo. There is a large difference between "I don't think this post warranted an argument" to belittling and denouncing someone for floating out a hypothesis. If we don't allow questioning, we can't grow as a town.

TL;DR: Those who use arguments that stagnate a growing town periscope are doing more harm than good and the more the volatile arguments follow this misconception/disagreement/what have you over a joke post, the more like I feel like I'm being lied to.

And on a sidebar, I suggest that if Jedo would like to criticize Zag for making his own distinctions in how he acts as scum and town, that he reread Day 1 of Survivor Mafia where he exemplified these traits and was town. If he wants to analyze it as a scumtell on its own, that is fine, but I will interject that it comes down to a higher complexity than "Monkey See, Monkey Do" in light of the last game. Jedo is also guilty of it himself in his initial argument towards Garou. (I'll quote and highlight after this.)

*(You'll note that he also put a scumtell on myself for defending Perpentach later who didn't fit Garou's OTT lurker test -- So why would he knowingly do something he considers scummy as town? Also - reading that he has a null tell on Perp - shouldn't that mean by association a null tell on myself? Or vice versa?
If we're going for the whole "scum would defend town players to gain their trust" angle, it seems a large percentage of that relies on tone and context, which is exactly what he attacked other players for: inferring more than meets the eye. I think my biggest trouble here is that he is presumably with the knowledge that he himself is town, is defending Jedo vehemently and yet is bruising my balls a bit for defending Perpentach. I think it is plainly evident UM is using his own definitions of scumtells and what you should and shouldn't do as town to fit his own agenda. That just sends shivers down my spine. FoS: Undercover Monk)
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Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits.

[jadesmar]

[The Great Crep'er]

[Sentran]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Sentran]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Just a quick post while on break.

I don't know about everyone else, but the Monk vs. Zag discussion is sounding like town vs. town to me. As such I'm going to be looking at everyone else and see what I can.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[Sentran]

[Undercover Monk]

Id be willing to vote TGC if I werent so sure of Zags scumieness. Of course I'm aware that its probably because we disagree on that one issue thats causing me to see him as scum. But to me its so obvious that the offending post is of no consequence that the fact that Zag persists in voting Jedo just annoys me.

But yeah TGC was obviously pushing a double standard in that post and I think is worth a FOS at least.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Zag]

If you're sure from that exchange, then you're a fool. I had to look back to be sure, but at least it wasn't you complaining about TGC's double standard. I, at least, have said that Jedo's behavior is only, to me, a slight indicator, and wouldn't be enough for a vote on any day but day 1. You, however, are SURE. When you do learn that I'm town, remember this, remember why you felt sure, and learn not to feel that way in the future. If you were meta-gaming at all, I can't believe you'd vote for me. Taking a controversial stand is so unlike my scum behavior that I'm surprised you don't see it. (Of course, one might say that I'm a tricksy enough hobbit to play it that way on purpose, counting on the meta-gaming. I can't argue with that.)

I'll unvote Jedo if that will make you happier, though I know that it won't. As I said, I never felt that strongly, and I would actually have felt a little queasy if he suddenly picked up several votes after me, since that would be an indicator that he is town and a couple of those votes are scum. For a while I was thinking that the fact that he didn't pick up any votes at all was another indication of the scum not yet willing to bus a buddy, but the whole thing has been too controversial, so the scum probably would stay away for that reason, too.

So, just to be clear to the rest of you, I am unvoting in order to appease UMonk, though it won't work. I still have Jedo and jadesmar at the top of my list for scum, but they are still just a tiny bit off of center, and hardly something I feel confident about. I do think that all the possible value has been gained from this conversation, which is to prepare fodder for the future, so, if my unvoting will end it, that's a good thing and we can go on to something else.

If UMonk turns out to be scum, then Jedo almost certainly isn't, and vice-versa. If Jedo is, then you (assuming I'm gone by then) should look for people trying to (A) deflect the conversation away from Jedo, and (B) supporting UMonk subtly, without really trying to seem that they are, perhaps by asking leading questions but not actually taking a stand themselves.

[The Great Crep'er]

[The Great Crep'er]

[The Great Crep'er]

[Undercover Monk]

Appeasement be dammned LOL confirm vote: Zag

I apologize Zag If you feel I am being overly agressive but everything you post right now just screams scum to me. TGC is right you are backpedaling. The timing is the key here you back pedal after repeated attempt to show that Garous vote was based on a logical rational reasoning. Now instead of showing why thats the case (I know you have put forth your argument before but Im not convinced yet and won't be) you say its to make me happy. The only thing that would make me truly happy is if we lynched you and you turned out to be scum.

TGC I get the difference but yeah the wording was a very poor choice. I dont seriously believe that you would lie deliberately as town I just wanted to poke fun at you much in the way I did with jadesmar and his habit of dying prematurely in these games. official removal of FOS.

Im actually ready to end this day for 3 pages we have a lot to look at so I suggest we get our ducks in a row if Zag is not a viable lynch candidate then who is? I just want some concrete info and the only way we get that is with a kill.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Undercover Monk]

LOL TGC I hope that jab at me was in good fun as mine was meant. LOL that eye roll smiley had me cracking up
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

TGC, I'm glad you responded about where you thought I was belittling. I don't really see how the first quote satisfies that. I was just showing that it was somewhat arbitrary of a distinction when there were other things that could be taken the same way. As to the second, I see what you mean even though I disagree (namely because it wasn't my intention). As my wife is always telling me though, just because I didn't intend it doesn't mean it wasn't still wrong.

It's interesting you chose not to respond to the immediately preceding sentence...

[Zag]

For what it's worth, Jedo, I didn't take your posts as condescending. But it takes an awful lot to irritate me, and you probably couldn't do it in a Mafia game because I'd just write it off to either you being scum or you believing I am.

On the other hand, if your reaction is OMGUS, then own it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Yeah, it's not Zag, but scum do like to throw that reason against other people because it makes the accuser look better. See my discussion about OMGUS here, post 93.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Undercover Monk]

so.....

nothing new to be said. How about a votecount to see where we are. going into the weekend with no conversation does not bode well. If you guys want me to change my vote you have to persuade me that someone is scummier than Zag.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Garou_Kinfolk]

If nothing else, I could post the post count I've been doing. Don't know what it will tell us if anything, but it's something else to look at for now.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[Sentran]

I have no valid arguments why not to vote for Zag, but I don't see his actions as being all that scummy. This is a tough day one to get a read on. There have been very few arguments, and the tone has been pretty reasonable so far this game. As one friend of mine likes to say, it's not a good Mafia game until somebody gets pissed off.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I'm just going to post the post count I've been working on. The first number is a players total post count. Rge second one has quick corrections and multi-posts (like my triple post, I've not counted 2 of those posts) removed.

3iff: 6
Garou_Kinfolk: 12/10 (doesn't include this post)
Jadesmar: 9
Jedo the Jedi: 13
Perpentach: 5/4
Raekuul: 8/7
Sentran: 14
T.G.C.: 11/10
UndercoverMonk: 17/14
Zag: 16

I will re-read the day and post what I find/feel some time soon.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[jadesmar]

I'm still here..

A little more suspicious of Garou because of posting post counts.

But not enough to change my vote. Maybe like 1% more suspicious of him

[The Great Crep'er]

Sometimes with longer posts, I think of a lot of things I should say but don't. Faulty memory. I think if we were all playing IRL with one another my game would be substantially better. I don't have the best retention with long threads so things will slip and I trust my colleagues to point them out if they feel they are issues that need to be pressed further by myself. Obviously one wouldn't go around showing blatant ignorance in a game about communication.
In any event, Jedo, I didn't really think twice over the comment. I didn't attribute the outburst on solely your shoulders. Speaking just on attitudes, the whole 'this argument is bunk' and 'people might go along with this' shows a glaring inconsistency to me. Unless you want to make the derogatory statement of the year about the rest of the town and suggest that we are somehow into buying bunk.

As for the first post I cited against you, to me it was in the tone of drawing it to another hypothetical argument which no one had opened and one would draw such scarce reason to vote from based on no votes and few posts. Kind of knocking it down to a parallel level.

Overall, I don't feel good about lynching Zag. If only because the argument against him grew from about as implicative and arbitrary a place as Garou's - which he is now apparently taking the heat for? The recent post of course is a strike against him for me because it just spites the whole damn argument and the "This'll do" attitude from him and the blather about people taking different notches in his scumrating. But no one has replaced Jedo in his vote! It was a very hard shift for me to swallow.

Just on the whole, I'd rather deliberate at least a scooch bit more before we head to the gallows because as many have argued, more discussion leads to more fodder. Which means more to work off of in the future. I know what happens more often than not in this first day is information-starved people looking for tells that aren't fully there in an effort to kickstart the game -- is it fair to throw anyone under the bus who started the dialogue? If it's dialogue not in your personal tastes -- is the appropriate recourse to stop that dialogue?

@G_K: I just want to ask why I haven't turned up in your FoS's so far for my vote against Jedo.
_________________
Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

@T.G.C.: Your Jedo vote was the second player post of the game. I didn't put an fos on you for it because it was an RVS vote. If you'd like me to put an fos on you for NOT moving it since game start, I'm afraid it'll take more then just that from me for now.

I would like to see more posts from Perpentach though. It's been bugging me that the last time he was called on being a lurker he made a few posts and gave his reads for that time, then went silent again. It's not sitting right with me, but I remember how he's lurked on past games and am letting it slide for now (no vote or fos).
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[The Great Crep'er]

[raekuul]

I would find this constant back and forth to be amusing if (a) it was going anywhere and (b) it didn't risk us lynching a potential townie/cop/vigilante/doc/mason/mafioso/serial killer/miller/townie.

[3iff]

Note, I have indicated a SOFT deadline for this Thursday. If posts pick up then this deadline will go away... Players may request an extension if they wish but I'll need to see some action first.