Religious Woes

[CrystyB]

The first hint gave me this:

quote:

---

Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU A
> 5 lines that use other hints
Those who wish to change the world According with their desire Cannot succeed
> 4 lines that use other hints
All religions begin with a >the last words use other hints

---

Rejoice! Happiness! Infinite Happiness! [hey, i must submit this quote to a GameTrivia topic!]

[Sofis]

[Marvin]

OK, the last line reads:
"All religions begin with a revolt against morality, and perish when morality conquers them."
Profound stuff.

[There's another line that uses this ciper. Underneath 'Those who wish to change..':
"Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind."]

[This message has been edited by Marvin (edited 11-30-2001).]

[Raist]

that last line (whom ever saved...) is from the Quarran (appologies if I spelled that inncorrectly.) 95% sure on that from my readings over the past few weeks.

[CrystyB]

Do you mean the Koran, the "Bible" of the Musulman religion?

[The Cheshire Man]

Which is also transliterated as Qu'ran, yes I believe so.

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[The Cheshire Man]

That first line sounds like it's from one of the Gitas. Probably Krishna speaking.

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[CrystyB]

Hint #2 solved:

quote:

---

1 Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU ART THAT.
...
2 The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.
2 Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
...
1 Those who wish to change the world According with their desire Cannot succeed
...
1 Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind.
...
2 My Lord, increase my knowledge.
1 All religions begin with a revolt against morality, nd perish when morality conquers them.

---

Yeah, sorry about that "Whoever" line, my program had a small bug that showed since the line before hd finished in a letter.

[PhoenixMan]

Can someone tell me how you're getting that? What are the clues? How are they used? How do you know what clues to use where? Someone HELP!

[Marvin]

The first cipher is relatively straightforward. The first plain text line of the puzzle after the encrypted text says 'Turn right and left, back and forth, more and more'. The first encrypted word is 'Afjkbya'. This is decryped as

code:

---

A -> B (+1 letter)


f -> e (-1 letter)


j -> l (+2 letters)


k -> i (-2 letters)


b -> e (+3 letters)

---

etc. Each word is decrypted in this way separately.
If you try this on the whole encrypted text, some lines come out as plain text (the lines CrystyB has numbered 1) and some junk.

[Marvin]

I'm not sure if I should be putting a big spoiler warning in front of this, but the decrypted text is already posted and I guess you wouldn't be reading this thread if you weren't interested in the solution.

Anyway, the second cipher is more complicated, but follows a similar pattern in that each word is decrypted separately. The clue is 'Half and half, down and to the right, faster and faster, wrap it about'. This time, the alphabet is split into two halves, and the letters A to M and N to Z are treated separately.
For the first letter of each word, the two halves of the alphabet are swapped over and shifted forward one letter. For the second letter, the two halves are swapped back and shifted forward another letter.
It would be easier to list in a table:

code:

---

  A B C D E F G H I J K L M  N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z


1 O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z N  B C D E F G H I J K L M A


2 C D E F G H I J K L M A B  P Q R S T U V W X Y Z N O


3 Q R S T U V W X Y Z N O P  D E F G H I J K L M A B C


4 E F G H I J K L M A B C D  R S T U V W X Y Z N O P Q 

---

This second cipher applies to the 3rd line of encrypted text, and all the other lines CrystyB has marked with a 2.

Sofis - Any hints for the third cipher? I've been looking at the encrypted letter patterns and have a possible solution for a small part of the first few letters of each word, but I'm having trouble getting to a full cipher using the clue.

[Sofis]

I don't really want to give hints. Official GL puzzles should be able stand on their own, outside of the forums. Keep looking at the unsolved cyphers and you'll hit upon the secret to solving them eventually.

[Wrongway]

Spoiler below for the third encryption method:
.
.
.
I got this by solving cryptogram-style for most-likely words and then, once I had enough best guesses, staring for hours at the way the letters changed until the method became clear.

Simply: Divide the alphabet into vowels (including Y) and consonants. Then "advance" in the appropriate group according to the letter's position in the word. "A" would be "E" if it started a word, "I" if it was the second letter, etc. Wrap around as necessary. This leaves us with all the quotes solved:

1 Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU ART THAT.
3 God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.
2 The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.
2 Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
3 Religion is the opiate of the people.
1 Those who wish to change the world According with their desire Cannot succeed
3 When all desires that cling to the heart are surrendered, then a mortal becomes immortal.
1 Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind.
3 A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches.
2 My Lord, increase my knowledge.
1 All religions begin with a revolt against morality, nd perish when morality conquers them.

Strangely, the method seems to be described by the FOURTH line, not the third, which means I haven't found a use for the third line yet.

As for what to do next: There are two quotes each from six different religions (counting atheism). There are also six numbers at the bottom, but I haven't found the right way to get an overall "answer" by combining these two. I'm sure fresh eyes will be able to figure it out.

[The Cheshire Man]

I recognize the New Testament bible verses, one from Matthew and one from a Pauline epistle, I forget which, as well as the quote from Marx and the anti-religious quote, but I'm afraid I can't sift through the eastern religions, except to point out Hinduism, Taoism, and Buddhism are all represented at least once. Can anyone find the sources to all these quotes?

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[Jen Aside]

Mooching off Wrongway and several online resources... (some are DAMN hard to find except as soundbytes)

1 Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU ART THAT: Chandogya Upanishad at 117. (Hinduism)
3 God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline: The Bible, 2 Timothy 1:7. (Christianity)
2 The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone: Tao Te Ching chapter 37. (Taoism)
2 Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye: Shaseki-shu Zen Koans; 19. The First Principle (Zen Buddhism)
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted: The Bible, Matthew 5:4 (Christianity)
3 Religion is the opiate of the people: Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, On Religion (Marxism)
1 Those who wish to change the world According with their desire Cannot succeed: Tao Te Ching chapter 29 (Taoism)
3 When all desires that cling to the heart are surrendered, then a mortal becomes immortal:Katha Upanishad, Part 2 at 59. (Hinduism)
1 Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind: The Koran, 5:32. (Islam)
3 A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches: Zen Koans (I can't find a specific reference). (Zen Buddhism)
2 My Lord, increase my knowledge: Koran 20:114. (Islam)
1 All religions begin with a revolt against morality, and perish when morality corrupts them: George Bernard Shaw. (Atheism/Agnosticism)

[The Cheshire Man]

quote:

---

Clockwise spiral, starting up, and follow the right hand guide.

28 67 19 19 3 7

---

Crazy Idea:

Clockwise spiral, starting up: put the twelve answers at the twelve hours of a clockface.

Right hand guide: look at the rightmost number in each quotation.


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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[The Cheshire Man]

Or take the rightmost word from each quote, based on the six numerals.

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[Ghost Post]

The thing that popped into my head about the spiral is that in science, there are "right-handed" and "left-handed" turns. Take your right hand, stick your thumb out, and slightly curl your fingers. If you followed a right handed spiral (or spring, actually) in the direction your fingers are pointing, you would move along the spring towards the end that your thumb is pointing.

This made me think of the codes where you write your message on a strip of paper which is wrapped around a rod of some sort. To decode the message, you would need a rod of the same diameter.

No mention of anything like this anywhere, though...

[Will]

WrongWay you got it right the spiral thing goes with the numbers you use the numbers to go through the spiral thats all it is and all three clues come out the same take the letter A when you go right you go to B then left is A again back is Z then forth is a more and more is C when you take the second one wich is half and half do this a b c d e f g h i j k l m
n o p q r s t u v w x y z
ok take A again go down and to the right it is O then faster and faster wrap it about and wrap it about means to go back up and to the left wich is C

thats how i figured out this whole thing
wich is
Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU ART THAT.
God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.Now this is my chance to escape his keen eyeBlessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Religion is the opiate of the people.Those who wish to change the world According with their desire cannot succeed When all desires that cling to the heart are surrendered, then a mortal becomes immortal.Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind.A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches.My Lord, increase my knowledge.All religions begin with a revolt against morality, nd perish when morality conquers them.

well the numbers can also represent this one each kind with thier own then proceed forth at the appropriate pace meaning go forward 28 letters 67 letter 19 letters 19 letters 3 letters and 7 letters wich everone works

[Will]

oh way my dad thinks its pthetic that i am 15 and i figured it out

[CrystyB]

Will i can't follow you there. Have you foun dout the meaning of the numbers?

My quick recap:

hinduism 1 8
chritianity 2 5
taoism 3 7
(zen) buddhism 4 10
atheism 6 12
islam 9 11

After realizing that the sum of the six numbers is 12^2 - 1, i got this spiral:

code:

---

 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12


16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 13


15 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 27 14


14 51 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 61 28 15


13 50 12 14 15 16 17 18  1 62 29 16


12 49 11 13  4  5  6 19  2 63 30 17


11 48 10 12  3  *  7  1  3 64 31 18


10 47  9 11  2  1  3  2  4 65 32 19


 9 46  8 10  9  8  7  6  5 66 33 20


 8 45  7  6  5  4  3  2  1 67 34 21


 7 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 22


 6  5  4  3  2  1 28 27 26 25 24 23

---

I even tried out to put the first twelve letters of the decyphered text on its respective line, but nothing. What should i try now?

[haven't tried out yet: first letter of first 12 words per line, not first 12 letters...]


[This message has been edited by CrystyB (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Marvin]

You could start the spiral from the bottom and go up and then clockwise in, or start from the middle and spiral up and clockwise out.
[There's 160 words total in the decrypted quotes - how about spiralling the words and using the 6 numbers to get 6 words instead of 6 letters?
"Follow the right hand guide" could mean start counting words / letters from the right of the spiral instead of the top down]

[This message has been edited by Marvin (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Will]

i am sayin when you have a spiral try it like this a spiral of letters then go at the approtaite pace as in going 28 letters more so if you were on the letter m and go to 28 letters do this count to z that is 13 now go another 13 letters wich since your at z spiral back around to a and end up at the letter o

[The Cheshire Man]

Sofis, you sure can write 'em.

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[Sofis]

Thank you .

By the way, I have no idea what Will is talking about.

[CrystyB]

I think he sais how to decypher the "3" phrases. In that case, Will, read more carefully: ew done that. Now we are bothering with the numbers.

[Will]

ok this is a spiral to me
za
w b
x c
w d
v e
u f
t g
s h
r i
q j
p k
o l
nm ok now move at the appropiate pace start at the letter A ok A now the appropaite pace is the first number 28 ok now go 28 letters around now that is the pace of 28 then do it to the next one

[CrystyB]

Here's what he meant:

code:

---

             za


           w    b


          x      c


         w        d


        v          e


       u            f


      t            g


       s          h


        r        i


         q      j


          p    k


           o  l


            nm 

---

But that's a circle. A spiral is this:

code:

---

 -----\


 /---\ \


 | . | |


 | \-/ |


 \-----/

---

[Will]

or you can do it like a DNA spiral wich is called a double helix you can go on one side with these acegikmoqsuwy then on the other helix go bdfhjlnprtvxz well then go at the aprpaite pace then when you gt y start back up with the letter z well do yall know wut i mean with the numbers of 28 and the rest of them

[wordcross]

I'm stuck at this part too!

Btw, since I happend to be muslim, the most accurate transliteration of the arabic word for our holy book would be Qur'an (TCM was close). And contrary to popular belief, it is not spelled "Moslem" it's like I wrote it above: "Muslim." And Muslims follow Islam. There is no such thing as an "Islamic." And the 's's are pronounced like 's', not like 'z'. I realize that most of you probably already know this, but it sometimes amazes me how Americans tend to screw up foreign words. I mean, who else on earth would call Beijing "Peking" for so long?

[edit] I'm just now struck about how much this should be in OT rather than here... [/edit]

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There are three other people in my head!

[This message has been edited by wordcross (edited 12-18-2001).]

[Sofis]

I must say, this is a pretty strange part to get stuck on. It's not hideously complex or anything.

[The Cheshire Man]

The problem is trying to find a way to mesh the three pieces of information we have left. We have: twelve quotes from six different religions each decoded by one of three different methods, a leftover "decoder method" to use (either the third or fourth), and a series of six numbers...

!~LIGHTBULB~!

Have we tried ignoring the quotes for now and trying to decrypt the six numbers using the third or fourth "dance move"?

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[The Cheshire Man]

Another Lightbulb: Like with like...

1 Believe me, my son, an invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is Reality. That is Atman. THOU ART THAT: Chandogya Upanishad at 117. (Hinduism)
3 When all desires that cling to the heart are surrendered, then a mortal becomes immortal:Katha Upanishad, Part 2 at 59. (Hinduism)

3 God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline: The Bible, 2 Timothy 1:7. (Christianity)
2 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted: The Bible, Matthew 5:4 (Christianity)

2 The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone: Tao Te Ching chapter 37. (Taoism)
1 Those who wish to change the world According with their desire Cannot succeed: Tao Te Ching chapter 29 (Taoism)

2 Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye: Shaseki-shu Zen Koans; 19. The First Principle (Zen Buddhism)
3 A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches: Zen Koans (no specific reference). (Zen Buddhism)

3 Religion is the opiate of the people: Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, On Religion (Marxism)
1 All religions begin with a revolt against morality, and perish when morality corrupts them: George Bernard Shaw. (Atheism/Agnosticism)

1 Whoever saved a human life should be regarded as though he had saved all mankind: The Koran, 5:32. (Islam)
2 My Lord, increase my knowledge: Koran 20:114. (Islam)




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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[Marvin]

Wrongway's third decryption method seems to be described better by 'Each kind with their own, then proceed forth at the appropriate pace' than 'Clockwise spiral, starting up, and follow the right hand guide'.
It had occurred to me that there's 160 words total in the phrases, which fit into a 13x13 square with the middle 3x3 missing, but that didn't get me anywhere either.

[The Cheshire Man]

Too bad this part isn't hideously complex--if it were, we would have solved it by now. There's something we're not thinking of.

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[theguywholikespuzzles]

What puzzles me is how the folks at the Grey Labyrinth maintain such loyal fans despite the fact that THEY HAVEN'T HAD A NEW PUZZLE IN A MONTH AND A HALF, AND NO ONE HAS GOTTEN ANY CLOSER TO SLOVING THIS ONE.

Can we PLEASE get a new puzzle? Or at least see the answer to this one?

[Marvin]

Ooooh! a saucer of milk for table two!
The other forums keep us amused.

[HyToFry]

This bump is strictly to turn off the light bulb.

[The Cheshire Man]

*~finishes reading solution~* You've got to be kidding me! How could anyone have made those mental connections?

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Now you see me, now you don't... but keep smiling!

[Sofis]

Hmmm? After having paired the sentences up, comparing them does not seem to be an extremely far-fetched thought. The idea of sentences having the same letter in the same position has been used in at least one treasure hunt puzzle posted in VSP, without problem.
The rule for decrypting the final word was admittedly slightly complex, which is why I left instructions. With those, it does not seem impossible to figure it out.