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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:32 pm Post subject: 1 |
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Greetings,
As many of you may know, I happen to enjoy playing poker. I have read several thousand pages of poker theory, strategy, odds, probabilities, psychology and tactics of late. I am currently destroying my home game on a weekly basis, averaging winning two full buy-ins (a buy in is $40).
I also happen to enjoy teaching. Quite often I find that the best way to learn something is to teach it. Therefore, I'm thinking about constructing a course in poker. I'd like to know if there's anyone interested in learning how to play the game well. You can, of course, do the same thing I did, and read several thousand pages. I don't claim to be a professional player.
If there's anyone interested, I'll begin a series of lectures here, and attempt to craft a set of exercises.
Poker is a fascinating game that is anything but random and can be played well. So if you'd like to learn more about it, post here.
Thanks,
Borodog
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Sami
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject: 2 |
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| I'd be interested. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:48 pm Post subject: 3 |
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when I was in the Air Force, I played a lot. I thought I knew a little about the game, but would be interested to see how wrong I was.
I do know one thing for sure - it is not a 'game of chance'. |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:51 pm Post subject: 4 |
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| Deal me in. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:02 pm Post subject: 5 |
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Well, as they say, three's a quorum. I will begin crafting a lesson plan forth with.
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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i_h8_evil_stuff
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:17 pm Post subject: 6 |
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*hopes he's not too late*
*Tosses in his ante of $1* |
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Lilifreid
DANGER!
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject: 7 |
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| I'd be interested. |
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Sniklac16
Spaciest of aides
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:28 pm Post subject: 8 |
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I'd be interested considering poker is the only card game I play(other than solitaire ).
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"I fly by night and hide by day" |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:32 pm Post subject: 9 |
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Preliminary lesson plan
1. Generalities
a. The First Thing: It’s not about winning hands
b. Poker hands
c. Sequence of play
d. Betting structures
i. Antes
ii. Blinds
e. Forms of poker
i. 5 card draw
ii. 7 card stud
iii. Texas Hold’em
iv. Omaha
v. High-low split
2. All cards are created equal – it’s just that some are more equal than others
a. Starting cards
b. Expected Value (E.V.)
c. Social cards (or: Keeping Them In)
d. Anti-social cards (or: Pushing Them Out)
3. To draw or not to draw – that is the question
a. Pot odds
b. Odds of completing your hand (or: wins and outs)
c. Odds you’ll win if you make your hand
d. Making them pay to play (or: The Free Card)
e. Implied odds
f. Why different staring hands are social or anti-social
4. Location, Location, Location
a. Position
b. Adjusting for your position
c. Stealing the blinds
d. Defending the blinds
5. Types of play and players
a. Tight vs. Loose
b. Passive Vs. Aggressive
c. Who you want to be: Tight and Aggressive
6. The Fundamental Theorem of Poker
a. The value of deception
b. The value of mixing it up
c. Why we bluff (or: Game Theory and Bluffing)
7. Reading Hands
a. Working forward
b. Working Backward
c. Reading Tells
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 02:33 PM).] |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:34 pm Post subject: 10 |
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By the way, this is an interactive course, so questions are more than welcome, although I reserve the right to say, "We'll be covering that later."
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Bicho the Inhaler
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: 11 |
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| I'm definitely interested. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:45 pm Post subject: 12 |
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The First Thing: It’s Not About Winning Hands
Imagine you are at a poker table, say with seven other people. A hand is dealt to each of you, face up, from a well-shuffled deck of cards. One of you will win. Shampoo, rinse repeat. Once in a great while, two hands may tie. After a thousand hands or so, each of you will have been dealt the winning hand at the table about 125 times, give or take 11 or so. As the number of deals goes up, the fraction of winners dealt to each player asymptotically approaches 1/8.
This brings us to the first thing you have to understand about poker: Everyone eventually gets the same cards. Everyone gets dealt winners. Everyone gets dealt losers (usually much more often than not). Poker is not about winning the most hands. It is about maximizing the return on the winners, and the losses on the losers.
Owen’s First Law of Poker: You would lose most hands you are dealt if you played them. Therefore, don’t play them.
This is not to say, by the way, that you should only play hands where you are the favorite to win. This is not the case, but we’ll talk more about that later.
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 02:46 PM).] |
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Sniklac16
Spaciest of aides
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:50 pm Post subject: 13 |
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So you should NEVER play your hand???
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"I fly by night and hide by day" |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject: 14 |
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Originally posted by Snik:
So you should NEVER play your hand???
Of course you should play hands. You just won't play the majority of them.
Poker Hands
Now that you’re in the proper mindset, let’s examine the fundamentals that make up poker. Poker is played amongst some number of players greater than one and less than 23 (yes, it is possible to play poker with 22 people, but I wouldn’t advise it!). It is played with a standard deck of 52 cards (sometimes in Draw poker a joker is inserted, for a total of 53). Valid poker hands must contain exactly 5 cards, no more, no less. Different combinations of cards in a hand have different strengths, much like rock paper scissors. The hands are (in order from weakest to strongest):
1. High card (For example, 2, 4, 5, 8, J of mixed suits would be a “Jack High”)
2. One Pair (For example, K, K, 6, 8, J would be a pair of Kings with a Jack “kicker”)
3. Two Pair (For example, Q, Q, T, T, A would be Queens and Tens with an Ace kicker; two pair is many times read as the higher pair “up;” in our example, Queens Up)
4. Three of a Kind (For example 5, 5, 5, T, Q would be “Trip 5s”)
5. A Straight (Any five cards in sequence, such as 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 [of mixed suits]. Aces may generally be low or high as needed to complete a straight; i.e. A2345 is a “straight to the 5” and TJQKA is a “straight to the Ace"; however, straights cannot “wrap;” KQA23 is NOT a straight!)
6. A Flush (Any five cards of the same suit (NOT in sequence); for example A37TJ of hearts is an “Ace high flush”)
7. A Full House (Three of a kind plus a pair, for example KKKJJ is “Kings full of jacks,” or just “Kings full”)
8. Four of a Kind (Pretty self-explanatory)
9. A Straight Flush (5 cards of the same suit, in sequence, such as 89TJQ of spades)
10. A Royal Flush (the highest hand in non-wildcard poker; it’s just the highest possible straight flush).
Any hand on the list beats any hands listed prior to it (i.e. has a smaller number), while within a category, the winner is decided by the rank of the cards that create the hand. For example, a pair of Aces beats a pair of Kings, and an Ace high beats a Queen high, etc. If those cards tie, the winner is determined by the rank of the “kickers” (the cards that aren’t part of the hand that makes the category. For example AAKJT beats AAQJ9. Ties amongst straights or flushes are broken by their highest cards. If that ties in a flush, the second highest card is compared, and so on down until one hand is shown to be higher. It is possible for two hands to tie. Suits do NOT have any special ordering in poker; A spade flush does NOT beat an identical heart flush. If anyone tries to pull this one on you, don’t play poker with him.
Get a standard deck of playing cards, shuffle it a few times, and deal out ten hands. Look through them and identify the hands you’ve dealt out. You’ll see lots of garbage, some pairs, rarely two pair, more rarely still 3 of a kind, etc. The ranking of the hands comes from the fact that it is harder to be dealt a pair than not, harder still to be dealt two pair, etc. The ranking within each category (i.e. that high card wins) is arbitrary, and is not based on probabilities.
Do this exercise a few times. You see some surprising things before long. You’ll deal “pat” hands (hands that are already made straights, flushes, or better) more often that you’d expect. You’ll deal two pair and trips much more than you might expect. You'll deal "4 straights" and "4 flushes." Remember than these hands you’re dealing out are just like any hands you might be dealt in a poker game! At least half of them are absolute trash. Keep this is mind. Recall the First Law.
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 03:25 PM).] |
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Sami
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:26 pm Post subject: 15 |
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| For two full houses, does the higher triplet win or the higher pair? |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: 16 |
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Higher triplet.
Antrax
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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:59 pm Post subject: 17 |
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Thanks, antrax.
Sequence of Play
There are several things that generally precede the playing of a hand of poker, in more or less the following order they are:
1. The cards are “made,” i.e. they are shuffled. Most good games will keep two decks running so that one deck can be made while the other is in play. The dealer shuffles the deck 7 times (this is not superstition; it is the minimum number of shuffles to insure a completely randomized deck). Many players consider it EXTREMELY RUDE to not bother to make the deck until you should be dealing it! Everybody does it once in a while (particularly when they were deeply involved in the previous hand), but don’t make a habit of it. You should also get two decks with different colored backs, so that the cards don't get mixed.
2. Once the deck is made, the dealer offers the “cut” to the player on his right (to insure that he has not “stacked” the deck). The player to the dealer’s right cuts the deck by moving some portion of the cards towards the dealer. The dealer finishes the cut by placing the original bottom half on the top.
3. Everyone puts a nominal amount into the “pot” so that the hand is worth playing. This is called the “ante” (literally, prior to).
4. In some games, one or two players to the dealers left may be required to place forced, or blind, bets. We’ll talk more about this later.
5. The dealer then deals out the cards, one at a time, clockwise, starting with the player to his left, and finishing each time with himself.
6. Betting rounds, draws, and further deals then follow according to the rules of the particular form of poker, until a winner (or winners) is determined. He (or they) take the pot, the deal passes clockwise (i.e. to the left), and the “dirty” cards are passed ahead of the new dealer (i.e. to his left) for the next guy to “clean” (i.e. make). Hence, he is on deck, and is making the deck that he will eventually deal from.
There are 6 things a player may do on any betting round when it is his turn:
1. Check (meaning that there has not been a bet in front of him, he declines to make a bet, but is still playing the hand).
2. Bet (meaning there has not been a bet in front of him, and he decides to “open” the betting by placing a bet; subsequently, checking is not allowed; all players must either call the bet, raise, or fold [see below]).
3. Raise the bettor (meaning there has been a bet in front of him, and he is matching it and raising it to a higher amount).
4. Re-raise the raiser (meaning there has been a raise in front of him, and he is matching it and raising it to an even higher amount).
5. Call (meaning there has been bets and or raises and re-raises in front of him, and he is matching the amount required to continue to play; calling a raise without first having the opportunity to call the original bet [i.e. calling a “double bet”] is called “calling a raise cold”).
6. Fold (meaning that the player forfeits any chance to win the pot and is out of the remainder of the hand).
Play proceeds to the left, starting with the person to the dealer’s immediate left, and ending with the dealer. If all players check, the round is “checked around” and the next round of cards, draws, dealing, etc. proceeds.
If any player bets, for the betting round to end, the pot must be “right,” i.e., all remaining players must have called the last bet or re-raise. All players in the hands must have contributed the same amount to the pot. Once the pot is right, the next round may proceed.
It is generally considered rude and poor form to play out of turn, to check, bet, raise, call, or fold. Don’t do it.
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 10:18 PM).] |
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Samadhi
+1
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject: 18 |
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| Can you teach me how to play well drunk? |
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Damelon
mafia n00b
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:01 pm Post subject: 19 |
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| Or, ummmmm, not drunk? |
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nepenthe
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:09 pm Post subject: 20 |
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| Can hardly wait to get to chapter 2 and beyond. Which form of poker do you personally find most consistently profitable? |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject: 21 |
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So, for example, the following might represent a typical betting round amongst 5 players:
All players ante $0.10, for a total of $0.50 in the pot. Player 5 is the dealer. Play starts to his left with player 1:
- Player 1 checks.
- Player 2 checks.
- Player 3 bets $0.50 (the pot is now $1).
- Player 4 raises player 3 $0.50 to a total of $1 (the pot is now $2).
- Player 5 (the dealer) re-raises player 4 $0.50 to a total of $1.50 (the pot is now $3.50)
- Player 1 folds.
- Player 2 folds.
- Player 3 folds.
- Player 4 calls the $0.50 re-raise (the pot is now $4).
- The pot is right, and the betting round is over. Only players 4 and 5 remain in the hand.
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 04:11 PM).] |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:17 pm Post subject: 22 |
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Nepenthe,
At my home game, we play almost exclusively 7-stud with 4 or fewer players, and almost exclusively Omaha hi-lo split 8-or-better with 5 or more. We spice it up with some 5 draw, shotgun (5 card double draw), and hold'em. I seem to do equally well with 7-stud and Omaha, although quite frankly several times a night I still find myself cursing Omaha (usually when I fold a medium-good hand because a better hand is possible and the table is betting through the roof, only to find out everyone was going low and I folded a winner).
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Sami
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:18 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| Do we get to learn what all that means? I know how to play only draw and stud... |
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Samadhi
+1
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:30 pm Post subject: 24 |
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| One of my pet peeves is people who don't cut towards the dealer. How bad is this etiquette-wise? |
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nepenthe
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:30 pm Post subject: 25 |
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| I've heard that it's very possible to mathematically assess with substantial certainty your probability of winning or losing a given hand in 7-card stud, but the same is not true with, say, texas hold'em which has too much of a human element involved. Do you think this is true? |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:38 pm Post subject: 26 |
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Betting Structures
The betting structure determines what the antes are (if any), what the blind bets are (if any), and how much and how many times people are allowed to bet or raise. The structure can be extremely varied. For example, in one game, the antes may be moderate, say $0.10, and the bets on any betting round may be anything from $0.25 to $2, with a $0.25 forced bet by one player to start off the action. In another game, there might not be any ante at all, only forced bets. The person to the dealer’s left may be forced to bet $0.50 blind, and the person to his left may be forced to bet $1 blind. All succeeding players must at least call this $1 “big blind” bet to continue playing. The “little blind” may call another $0.50 (if it hasn’t been raised), or fold, and lose his $0.50. Further betting in this game might be in fixed increments of $1 in early betting rounds, and $2 in later rounds. There may be a “cap” on the number of raises (in most cases it is 3). But then again, if the hand becomes “heads up” (i.e. between only two players), the cap may be removed.
Some betting structures are “pot limit,” (i.e., at any time a player may bet the current size of the pot). You can see that the pot size can grow very rapidly in these games!
Even worse is “no limit.” A misnomer really; no limit poker is almost always actually “table stakes;” a person CANNOT be forced out of a hand by betting more than he has on the table. He can go “all-in” and can win only the portion of the pot that matches what he’s paid for; a “side pot” goes to the second-best hand if he does win.
In general, you do NOT want to start off playing poker in pot limit or no limit games, they are scary and intimidating. The learning curve can be steep and precipitous. Disaster looms when someone can force you to call everything you have to stay in a hand. Stick with limit poker until you’ve got more balls than I do.
A typical structure for a home game might be $0.25 and $0.50 blind bets one and two to the left of the dealer, with all bets being anywhere from $0.25 to $2 on all betting rounds, with a 3 raise maximum. This is the structure I use in my home game. Hence the most any one betting round can cost you is $8.
A lower stakes games might be nickel, dime, quarter. Everyone antes a nickel, and all bets must either be a nickel, a dime, or a quarter.
Choose stakes that are comfortable to you. But keep these two things in mind.
1. Play for stakes that are interesting. If a quarter is not a significant amount of money to you, why would you bother trying very hard to win it?
2. Don’t play for stakes that cause you ulcers. Don’t play poker with the rent money. Don’t play recreationally for stakes that are so scary it’s no fun.
Here’s a good way that I found to be able to play at any reasonable home-game stakes without ever having to take money out of the bank. Pay for things only with cash. Take ALL change, and throw it in your poker fund. That’s it. If you feel you must, you can seed your poker fund with a one time investment of $20, $100, whatever is comfortable to you. That’s it. I started doing that 15 years ago, and I have never since had to take money out of my bank account to play poker.
We’ll see later how what stakes you are playing should dramatically affect your playing style; a fact that very few people take into account.
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:42 pm Post subject: 27 |
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Originally posted by Sami: Do we get to learn what all that means? I know how to play only draw and stud...
Yes, you'll get to learn what all that means. If you're not playing Omaha, you are seriously missing out. It's the crack cocaine of poker. ;-)
Originally posted by Samadhi: One of my pet peeves is people who don't cut towards the dealer. How bad is this etiquette-wise?
It only becomes rude if they do it repeatedly after friendly reminders. If it continues after that, you should begin to finish the cut as though it were done correctly (which puts it right back the way it was!). Believe me, he'll wise up real fast.
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 11-11-2003 04:43 PM).] |
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Samadhi
+1
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:45 pm Post subject: 28 |
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| Oh, good thinking. Hehe. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:46 pm Post subject: 29 |
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| Quote: |
| I've heard that it's very possible to mathematically assess with substantial certainty your probability of winning or losing a given hand in 7-card stud, but the same is not true with, say, texas hold'em which has too much of a human element involved. Do you think this is true? |
No, this is not true at all, IMO. There is a "human element" in all of poker; that's why good players can win money in the long run. Hold'em and stud are very different, but odds and expected values can be calculated for hands in either.
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Sami
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:53 pm Post subject: 30 |
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| Is play that maximizes two people's total winnings significantly different from play that maximizes each one's individual winnings? (Meaning, suppose your home game is composed of couples. Would you play differently?) |
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firemeboy
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:57 pm Post subject: 31 |
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| Nice online teaching style there Boro... Seriously. It's hard to do. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:27 am Post subject: 32 |
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| Boro, when you play hi-lo split, how do you declare? Most people I've talked to have everyone declare at once, but I find it more fun when players declare one at a time, with the last bettor or raiser declaring first. |
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PhantasyStarOnline
RealityStar Offline
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:39 am Post subject: 33 |
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Nice...this'll really help against my friends soon....heeheehee...
*manical laughter* |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:37 am Post subject: 34 |
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| Quote: |
| Is play that maximizes two people's total winnings significantly different from play that maximizes each one's individual winnings? |
First of all, there's a word for this: cheating. In fact this can be a major problem in casinos, both live and online. Two or more players can certainly manipulate the game. Imagine that two people are playing out of the same "bankroll," i.e. they will share all their winnings. This is not quite as bad, but almost, as one person having two seats at the table! This gives them a trememndous advantage, particularly in manipulating the number of players who remain in the pot, which is extremely important (as we'll see later).
If you are caught doing this the consequences can be as mild as being thrown out of a casino and as drastic as getting the crap beaten out of you . . . or worse. Poker players do not like to be cheated.
This is not to say that poker players do not sometimes "school"; they do. But you should not go into a poker game with someone having made a deal to be their shill, or vice versa, or to "work" the game.
| Quote: |
| Nice online teaching style there Boro... Seriously. It's hard to do. |
Thanks. :-D
| Quote: |
| Boro, when you play hi-lo split, how do you declare? Most people I've talked to have everyone declare at once, but I find it more fun when players declare one at a time, with the last bettor or raiser declaring first. |
Actually, I hate declaring; it takes way too much time, and it seriously cripples high-low split games, in my opinion. At my house, the cards speak. The low hand takes low, the hand hand takes high. This is the way it's done in commercial cardrooms and casinos, as well.
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:47 am Post subject: 35 |
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Forms of Poker
In this section I will quickly outline the rules of a few of the most popular forms of poker. These generally fall into 3 categories:
1. Stud Games -- In stud games, you generally receive cards over several betting rounds, but never exchange cards. These games include 7 card stud, the very unusual 5 card stud, 7-stud hi-lo split, and razz (a lowball, or low hand wins game).
2. Draw Games -- In draw games, you generally may exchange some number of cards for new ones between betting rounds. These games
include 5 card draw, 5 card draw with a joker (Mexican poker), 5 card double-draw (Shotgun), draw lowball, and double draw lowball.
3. Flop Games -- In flop games, each player receives some number of personal cards, face down ("in the hole"), and then community cards are dealt, usually totalling 5 community cards, usually in three rounds: a round of 3 (the "flop"), a single (the "turn"), and a final card (the "river"). These games include Texas Hold'em, Omaha High, Omaha High-Low, and Pineapple.
Any game in the above where the player has more than 5 cards (such as seven card stud or Hold'em), the player makes his best 5 card poker hand from them.
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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Simian100
98% Human
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:24 am Post subject: 36 |
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So how about those of us interested start a GL table of Hold'em on Yahoo poker some time, and get right into the shiznit?
Texas Hold'em is the game they play in the World Series of Poker and other major tournaments. That stuff is really cool to watch on TV, it can be suspenseful as hell... God bless ESPN2. |
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jesternl
Yankee Doodle Dutchie
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:32 am Post subject: 37 |
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I would enjoy playing online, and learning why I always loose so badly
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Beartalon
'Party line' kind of guy
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:38 am Post subject: 38 |
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| Me too, but no real money until I learn how to lose graciously and have something to bet. |
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Suspence
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:45 am Post subject: 39 |
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Suspenceful is right. I love watching the World Series of Poker! Ever since I started watching that, I have wanted to get some of my friends together to play. I can't wait for Boro's lesson on Texas Hold'em, and I would love to play online as long as it was in a "learning enviroment", i.e. we don't bet real money.
[ooc]ESPN2 showed 3 hours of Kasparov vs. Computer chess today. Gotta love that channel.[/ooc]
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I hate people who try to write interesting things in their signature
[This message has been edited by Suspence13 (edited 11-11-2003 11:45 PM).] |
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Hitchhiker
Finally got a ride.
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:45 am Post subject: 40 |
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Use GL dollars.
(I'm "auditing" this course and finding it fascinating) |
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