Poker Course

[Chuck]

If I'm advertising loose play in a low stakes game I make sure the others notice by pointing it out to them.

[Borodog]

Believe it or not Chuck, it would probably work. The psychology of poker is a strange thing. If you've ever read any of the antics of Mike "The Mad Genius" Caro, he likes to do exactly that kind of thing. Like sit down at a table, bet his first hand to the max, stand pat (draw no cards), raise it up, and then show down a handful of garbage, cackling like a madman. Or he's likely to say something like, "I have trash! Ha! Can you believe that! Think of all the money you're going to have to spend calling me down!" Cackle, cackle, cackle. Some people will, and some people won't. He quickly identifies who these people are, and plays only good cards against the former, and bluffs at the latter.



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[Pablo]

Sounds like the whole object of poker is to be as unpredictable as possible. The most unpredictable play of all is purely random play. So you have a bunch of guys sitting around trying to out-random each other until all are playing equally randomly. At that point losers are determined by who runs out of money first, and winners are determined by who's ahead when it's time to quit. Something like that?

I didn't think so.

[Borodog]

No, the whole point of poker is to be able to adapt your strategy to the other players in the game.

If the other player is a clueless calling station, you play straightforwardly, with no deception, because you don't need it and it would cost you money.

If your opponent folds too much and too easily, you bluff him more.

If the other player is hyper-aggressive, you loosen up you standards for good hands and slowplay your very good hands to trap him in his own aggressiveness. This is why advertising you are a hyper-aggressive maniac can produce useful results later on: you've convinced your opponents that they need to loosen up on mediocre hands, and slow play monsters. Meanwhile, you've tightened up, meaning you'll generally have better hands than they do, and when you don't, they're slowplaying them, costing you less money. But this is pointless if it's not the correct kind of player. This is why the guy in our game specifically chose *me* to pick on by raising and re-raising every bet or raise I made, because he recognized that a) I was paying attention, and b) I was capable of modifying my play because of it.

Etc, etc, etc.



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[Samadhi]

Actually, it's to be less predicted than you are able to predict.

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To help combat doubts, try sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la la la la" repeatedly.

[Borodog]

Again, there are certain players against which there is no need to be unpredictable, since they'll call you anyway, and the only thing you need to be able to predict is that they'll call you with anything, regardless of how obvious it is you have a monster.


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[Borodog]

So much for the interaction . . .

Is there anyone interested in discussing anything about the game besides Antrax?


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[Chuck]

How about "How to cheat, and what to do if you're caught"?

Never mind. About this "cards speak for themselves" thing. When you have to select five cards from among many to be your hand in the showdown, do the cards speak before or after you make your selection?

For example, if I miss the fact that I have a flush in seven card stud and choose two pair to be my hand, what do I really have? It seems to me that only the five I choose should qualify to be in my hand. Otherwise, what happens if my flush is pointed out by someone after the guy with the straight has raked in the pot?

Wild cards could make the situation even worse. Are the other players expected to check out every possible hand that I might have depending on what I call my wild cards? That should be my responsibility. Do my cards speak for themselves before or after I announce what my wild cards are?

[Borodog]

"The cards speak" means that you have exactly the best possible hand contained within your cards, no matter what you say. It just makes things simpler. Just last week playing Omaha one player said, "Well, I have a crappy flush for high, and no low at all." (There were three diamonds on the board, making a diamond flush possible). Another player layed down his hand saying, "Well, I've got the nut low [A2], but no flush." We looked at his hand, and of course, the Ace-2 was A2 of diamonds, making him not only a flush, but the nut flush. He ended up scooping the pot.

We had another guy who the first night really had no idea how to play Omaha, but ended up winning several big hands in a row, completely by accident. The first of these he almost mucked his hand (from embarrassment at having payed so much with what he thought turned out to be "crappy" cards) before we could convince him to just lay his cards on the table so we could see what he had. Turned out he was playing s shitty two-pair for high (which is absolute trash in Omaha), but had the nut low without even noticing it!

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[This message has been edited by Borodog (edited 11-18-2003 10:03 PM).]

[Borodog]

All right, next phase.

Anyone interested in playing online against other GL members should go to http://www.pokerroom.com and download the Hold'em/Omaha/Stud client, and register an account. Then post here and we'll organize some playing time.


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[Samadhi]

Registered. Although some bastard already has my name. grrrrrr

[Vinny]

Asshat was taken, huh?

[Duke Gnome]

Registered as 'JamestheGrey'

[casinopete]

Very interested in playing with y'all online.

Registered as casinopete.

[Eykir]

Registered as Eykir

[Borodog]

OK. I've created a private table. In the poker room client, go to "Private Tables," sort by name, and find "Boroughdog's HE."

I'll sitting in there waiting.



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[Sami]

My firewall won't let me go to pokerroom.com. I guess I can only play from home...

[Sami]

Actually, I have a question about straights. If the A is the low card in your straight, does it become low for scoring? By which I mean, does 23456 beat A2345?

[Borodog]

Straights are determined by their high card, so a straight to the 6 beats a straight to the 5.


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[Borodog]

If you don't have an easily recognizable GL name at pokerroom, you might want to shoot me an IM (GL Borodog) so that I know who you are and to let you into the private table.

If I'm not in front of my computer I'll post a note here, and turn the table to "Accept All," but you might have some strangers stop by.


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[Damelon]

I'm registered under my name.

[Samadhi]

I played some hands last night and I did better than I remember doing last time I played Hold Em. I believe the credit lies with this thread. I found your diagram quite helpful.

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To help combat doubts, try sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la la la la" repeatedly.

[nepenthe]

I have an existing account at Pokerroom under the username "Atarax". I will be happy to drop by for some game of Hold'Em sometime in the evening.

Borodog, how much of a discrepancy do you think there is between estimated pot odds and the actual pot odds in a game of Hold'Em with some fairly good players? It seems that you not only have to estimate what chances you have of making a given hand, but also what your chances of winning are provided you do make the hand (unless it's a nut hand in which case it's 100%) as well as chances of winning despite failing to make the hand. This appears to require that you draw a conjecture regarding what your opponents are most likely to have, which is almost never an exact assessment esp. with the element of bluffing mixed in. For example you could bet, call and raise correctly according to your best educated estimation of pot odds given what you think the other players have, and still be completely wrong regarding the actual pot odds because they were misleading you into thinking they had what they didn't actually have. I assume this won't be as much of an issue for beginners, but surely the estimated/actual pot odds discrepancy must increase as the game gets more advanced?

[Antrax]

Okay, here's what I know about reading poker players. Hopefully it'll come in handy for those of you who play in real life.

First thing you must know is that reading isn't that useful. People who learn about poker from books and/or movies generally believe poker is about two things: bluffing and reading players (and also having a poker face of yourself). This is blatantly incorrect, and no amount of talent in reading people is going to help you if you don't play technically sound. When reading these lines, keep in mind it's just a nice addition to you playing a strategy that is statistically going to show a long-term profit, and not such a strategy on its own. The importance of hand reading increases as you up the stakes, and it becomes critical when you play no-limit games. However, since this course is meant for beginners (and I'm one myself, so I wouldn't presume to teach anything on expert level), keep in mind that hand/player reading is just a nice bonus.

Secondly you have to avoid using Vizziny logic. The knee-jerk reaction to reading such articles is "what if I deliberately stare everyone in the eye WHEN I'M REALLY GOING TO RAISE?". People think they're very clever when they reverse tells and the such, and start developing theories about poker being some sort of psychological battle of fake tells and wheels within wheels. It's not. You either read people on level 1, or you don't read them at all. Keep that in mind, I'm going to repeat it numerous times.

You will notice I interchanged "player reading" and "hand reading". These are very different subjects. This post will discuss reading players, ie figuring out what style player they are to know how much pressure they can take and how they're likely to behave in certain situations. Another very strong part if reading players is guessing what they're going to do in each round, which has great importance, IMO. So let's begin.

Reaing players

I'll begin with the basic principle of reading people: think the opposite. In general, if people are trying to create an impression, see what they want you to think, and think the opposite. It's always about less obvious signs. If someone says "I'm a beginner", odds are he's not. That's because nobody has a reason to make people think he's a beginner if he really is. It sounds retarded. It IS retarded, but that's the level of deception you're going to see at tables. If someone looks away from the table (very noticable) but he shakes his leg rapidly or taps his fingers on the table (less noticable), he's praying to God as many people as possible will enter the pot, etc. In any case of conflicting signals, pay attention to the less noticable ones -- actions and not words, small body parts and not large ones, under the table and not over. Some people are good, and will either give away nothing, or fake tells. Once they do, don't try and outthink them. Just stop trying to read them. It's like playing rock-paper-scissors. If you think you can outguess your opponent, go for it. But if you see it doesn't work, just playing at random gives you 50% to win, and that's good enough. The poker equivalent is to read only the easy people, and ignore the rest. Remember, your money comes from playing well, not from reading people. Reading is nice when you have it, but nothing horrible happens if you can't do it.

Who are you?
The distinction between aggressive and passive players, as well as tight and loose players, was mentioned before. Once again, the BEST way of knowing whether a player is tight or loose is to see how many flops he sees, as well what kinds of hands he brings to the showdown. But there are other ways, useful especially in the beginning, when you go heads up with someone and have no idea if your kicker beats his. So, here are some rules of thumb:

• Old is tight. Old people who come to casinos mostly play on their welfare and/or some other budget. That's their main source of entertainment, so they woudln't want their monthly allowance to run out before the month ends. That implies tightness. Additionally, old people who play have been playing for a while, so odds are they noticed that playing too many hands is not healthy for the bankroll.
  
• Respectable is tight. People who are generally tidy (sort their chips in neat piles, dress smartly) are people who like order. Such people are likely to act by certain rules, and odds are these rules set some tight standards on their opening hands. Quietness also implies tightness.
  
• Drunk is loose. If you notice someone relying heavily on the fact casino drinks are free, his opening standards will gradually get looser as the evening progresses.
  
• Loud is loose. People who are generally rowdy or talkative are also looser -- they like interaction, and sitting hands out is neither fun, nor interactive. Loud can be vocal, but also trashy clothing and the such.
  
• Rich is tight. This holds true ONLY if the person in question brought many chips with him (meaning he's getting settled for a long night, ie tight player). If someone has many chips for being ahead, he's actually likely to be loose, so be cautious.
  

• Young is aggressive - with friends or girlfriend doubly so. Young people tend to generally be more aggressive. When under pressure to prove themselves, such as being observed by their friends or significant other, or after having their pride wounded, they are likely to try and impress by playing extravagantly, making large bets and raising loosely, in order to cause the other guy to chicken out. This particular rule of thumb is very profitable, IMO, and you can instigate such poor play by insulting them (not recommended. You might get beat up, and is also unsportsmanlike) or by pulling plays on them (recommended). If you check-raise them and win in heads up, they are going to try and get even with you. That means they're going to pay you handsomely for every hand you make from now on. More on this later.
  
• Large is aggressive. This is generally true to life. People who are larger and stronger tend to develop more aggressive attitudes towards life in general, and poker in specific.
  
• Females are passive. One of nature's laws, really.
  
• New is passive. New players tend to go with the flow, meaning they'll generally call and see what happens. Also very profitable.
  

An even more important issue than these, is the level of the player you're dealing with. This is much harder to know for sure from showdowns and the such, so here are some important telltale signs. You might be dealing with a pro if:

• He shuffles his chips. You'll see what I mean when you're in Vegas. This requires practice, meaning anyone who can do it is not a tourist on his honeymoon.
  
• He wears those oversized sunglasses. Real pros wear them so people can't tell anything by their pupil dilation. The people you'll see are wannabes, so they wear them too, even though it doesn't help them and just serves as a tell on its own.
  
• He uses poker slang. People don't just invent poker slang, they hear it at the table and/or read it from books or online. In any case, this is a person who has either researched or has some experience.
  
• He doesn't lunge for his cards as soon as they're dealt. People who observe other people when "other people" are looking at their cards are very dangerous. They're looking for tells, and they have self discipline. This is a good sign they're strong opponents.
  
• He knows the dealer and/or other players. This is fairly obvious, IMO.
  

What are you going to do when your turn to act arrives?
The importance of position was discussed earlier. The advantage of late position is that you get to act after everyone, meaning you have more information, making it easier to play mathematically sound, which is (sing with me) the cornerstone of making money in poker. Luckily, some opponents are so obvious, you are able to guess what they're going to do. That means you effectively move one seat to the left for each opponent you can read. This is a HUGE advantage, and the first time I player in real life, in Atlantic City, I was effectly sitting on the button about half the time, instead of 10%. In this point I'd like to point out that I disagree with much of what Caro writes in his book of tells, about this. In the low stakes tables, when someone pretends like he's going to raise, he will usually raise. When someone acts out of turn, it's beacuse he's careless, not because he wants you to think that's what he's going to do. Because many people don't understand the concept of position, they don't realise how useful it is to know in advance what the other players are going to do, as opposed to "knowing what someone has", which everyone realise is important. What I'm trying to say is, people try to mislead you (poorly) about what they're holding, because they know it's important, but rarely about what they're going to do, because they don't see its importance. So, unless you notice someone trying deception, assume what you see is what you're going to get. For this reason, I'm going to ignore the "act out of turn", "prepare chips in advance" and their friends, and focus on less obvious stuff. Generally if I see someone getting ready to raise I'm assume he's going to raise, and if I see he lied, I mark him and know to be careful in the future. So, Antrax' book of tells continues.
One of the more useful kinds of people is hyperactive people. Hyperactive people basically can't stop themselves from doing SOMETHING, especially in a time of excitement. So, if the player is doing any of the following, expect a raise:

• Shake his leg up and down
  
• Tap his fingers on the table
  
• Move any other part of his body rapidly
  
• Toy with some small object (a chip, a pen, etc)
  

However, we are not always so fortunate. Sometimes we have to judge by less obvious signs. So, the following tells are all reversible. What that means is that when they're too blatant, ESPECIALLY if there's also a weak tell implying the opposite, assume it's a show and act accordingly. For example, if someone sings out loud, he's faking self confidence. But if his lips are moving inaudibly, odds are he really is sitting on a monster. So, your opponent might have a good hand if:

• He hums, sings or whistles
  
• He leans back (meaning "the tension is over for me, I know I'm going to win").
  
• His voice is steady when declaring actions.
  
• He prepares chips to call the bet a while before his turn (meaning "I don't care what you represent, I'm going to beat it").
  
• He jokes with other players or the dealer (if he doesn't usually), or otherwise tries to draw attention (he wants people to notice how he wins, and is also feeling relaxed).
  

Keep in mind if any of the above is too extravagant, he's likely to be bluffing. He's also likely to be bluffing if he:

• Touches his mouth a lot or covers it. This is really cliche, but what can I do, it's true. People feel uncomfortable to lie, and do something symbolic to sort of push the lie back.
  
• Blushes. This is a real scourge for people, because it's nearly impossible to control (requires a lot of Yoga/meditation practice). I have never met anyone who can blush willingly, and know very few who can control themselves and not blush.
  
• Looks at his cards in the river. People generally know what they're looking for by the time the river card comes, ergo they're only looking in order to tell you "oh yes, I know what my hand is, and look, I'm betting". In other words, odds are they didn't hit their hand.
  
• Bets quickly (if not typical for him). Again, he's trying to say "look at me, I'm so sure of my hand I don't even stop and think".
  

And lastly, your opponent is likely to fold if:

• He pushes his cards away from him after looking at them.
  
• He looks at this cards more than once on the same round (he's making sure he's not overlooking anything before tossing them away).
  
• He looks at this cards immediately after someone bets (same idea)
  
• He doesn't place a chip on his cards, if he usually does (preflop).
  
• He places his hand on the cards (preparing to grab them and toss them away). This is not the same as placing his hand between the cards and the outer world, which is called "guarding cards" and generally means a good hand.
  

This is about all I can come up with right now. Remember all these signs mean the opposite if you think people meant you to see them, and don't ever assume they want you to think they want you to see them, or your head will explode. If you think someone is clever enough to fake tells, don't read them at all. My next post will deal with reading hands, and the one after will deal with how not to give away information. Sorry this post is a mess, my thinking is generally less structured from Boro's, and I also come up with this stuff myself, for most part.
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Dr. Borodog]

[Dr. Borodog]

Oh yeah, if there's a 2 or 3 flush on the board, remember one or two of your straight cards can hurt you more than it may help, so remove those from your list of "outs" when figuring your pot odds.



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You will respect my philosophai.

[Samadhi]

Could you give a list of some good odds to memorize? I find myself guesstimating and that works ok for these loose online games, but I'd prefer to tighten up.

[Samadhi]

Oh and was the online game with the 20:1 you mentioned real money or play?

[Dr. Borodog]

Play, of course.

Some relevant odds. All of these are the odds against hitting your draw. So if it's list as 4.1, that's 4.1 against. Two flop games are represented, hold'em and Omaha. The number of "outs," or cards that complete your hand are listed down the left side. Believe it or not, in Omaha, you can have many more that 15 outs, but it becomes such a no-brainer to draw that the odds aren't worth memorizing. For both games, your odds of hitting your card are listed for hitting from the flop, so on the turn (Next), by the turn or river (w/2 to come), and from the turn on the river (Last).

code:

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		Hold'em				Omaha	


Unseen:	47		46		45		44


Outs	Next	w/2 	Last		Next	w/2	Last


1	46.0	22.5	45.0		44.0	21.5	43.0


2	22.5	10.9	22.0		21.5	10.4	21.0


3	14.7	7.0	14.3		14.0	6.7	13.7


4	10.8	5.1	10.5		10.3	4.8	10.0


5	8.4	3.9	8.2		8.0	3.7	7.8


6	6.8	3.1	6.7		6.5	3.0	6.3


7	5.7	2.6	5.6		5.4	2.4	5.3


8	4.9	2.2	4.8		4.6	2.1	4.5


9	4.2	1.9	4.1		4.0	1.8	3.9


10	3.7	1.6	3.6		3.5	1.5	3.4


11	3.3	1.4	3.2		3.1	1.3	3.0


12	2.9	1.2	2.8		2.8	1.1	2.7


13	2.6	1.1	2.5		2.5	1.0	2.4


14	2.4	1.0	2.3		2.2	0.9	2.1


15	2.1	0.8	2.1		2.0	0.8	1.9

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You will respect my philosophai.

[Dr. Borodog]

As an example of having an enormous number of outs in Omaha hi/lo, take this not unreasonable situation:

You hold As 2s Kc Qc, the board is 3s 4s Jc Tc on the turn. One card to come. Look at which cards make your hand:

- Any spade gives you the nut flush.
- Any club gives you a very good flush.
- The 2 other aces make you the nut straight (or better).
- The 2 nines give you the nut straight or better.
- Any low card above a 4 gives you the nut low.

There are ways to lose even if you do hit some of these (say a card that pairs that makes your flush but boats someone else, or getting your nut low quartered), but in general, this is too fastic a hand. You should bet it to the hilt, even if it is a draw. With this draw you are a 2:1 FAVORITE to win some portion of the pot!

(That's 30 outs if I count right).


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You will respect my philosophai.

[Samadhi]

Putting it like that is very general and helpful, thank you. (Unseen outs vs specfic situations like inside straight etc)
I'm going to practice counting unseen outs, the rest should be elementary.

[casinopete]

I consider the people here generally too intelligent to go nuts and start playing for money immediately, but I have a small warning to offer anyway. I've played a fair amount on pokerroom.com recently (play money), and have compiled some loose statistics.

In the 25-50 betting rooms, on average, more than six people stay in for the flop. Further, the odds the pot offers you at the end of the game are roughly four to one. This means that all you need to break even is to go all the way only with hands that will win 1/4 of the time (actually, a percent or two more to cover the blinds, but that misses the point). This is quite easy. What these statistics mean is that the play rooms are abominably loose. Though they can be fun to practice in, they do not give you any feel for how well you will do in a money game.

Offered for contrast, I also spent a little time watching one of the $1-2 real money games, and only 3.4 people stayed in for the flop on average, and the ending pot odds were roughly 2.5 to 1.

[Samadhi]

Why should we take your word for it? It's not like you have a name like PokerJoe or Casino.....oh. Nevermind.

[Antrax]

I'd like to second my evil twin (welcome back, btw), play money is pointless.
If people are interested in playing for money, my friend who lives off it plays on www.partypoker.com (after trying about 7 different sites he settled on this one)
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[nepenthe]

Borodog, thank you for your helpful comments.

[Samadhi]

When playing for money online what's to keep someone from writing a program to aid them? Or even play for them?

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To help combat doubts, try sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la la la la" repeatedly.

[This message has been edited by Samadhi (edited 11-21-2003 02:26 AM).]

[Chuck]

Some of the other players might be communicating with each other using instant messages or telephones. Secret cooperation would be easy.

[Samadhi]

Watching the money hands, the play is so quick I don't think human collusion would be easy. But writing a script to process the text, that doesn't seem so hard. At least I've seen it done with other programs. Granted, those tend to be purely reactive without any subroutines or situational analysis. But I believe a program could be set up to play the on line game. This is one of my main concerns regarding on line play.

[Borodog]

It is always possible that someone has written a program to play poker online. However I'm not too worried about it for a couple of reasons. One, it would be difficult to write a program that was significantly better than a good human player (although things like randomizing bluffs become very easy). Hence, it is unlikely that a bot would have a significant advantage over you, the person who has read this thread and given it some thought, is not playing crappy starters, is not chasing your tail on long-odds draws, is forcing people to pay for their draws, etc. Two, you do not really care if there are a few other good players at the table (even if one is a bot), as long as you aren't the "fish" (worse than everyone else). It is quite true that 6 well-matched professionals will play a game against a single poor (skill-wise, anyway) opponent, if he brought enough to share with the rest of the class, so to speak. Three, the online casinos (the good ones anyway, like Paradise Poker, Party Poker, and Ultimate Bet) police their tables, they compete with each other for customers, in large part via reputation. They troll for bots and colluders in a number of ways. Finally, cheating is a fact of life in every facet of life, from getting your car worked on to playing in a real brick and mortar casino. Being cheated should be low down on your list of things to fear about playing poker for money. Well below betting up your sevens full of aces, only to be called by aces full of sevens.

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[This message has been edited by Borodog (edited 11-21-2003 03:07 PM).]

[Borodog]

By the way, what Chuck mentioned is certainly the most common form of online cheating (collusion), but the casinos have ways of tracking it. If the hands you play corelate significantly more than random with another player, that may be an indication of collusion. It may not be, of course, but it can certainly make you a target for scrutiny. If Senator A votes 98% of the time with Ted Kennedy, you can pretty well guess which team he's playing for.



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