Teaching

[mith]

As some of you know, today I started my little temporary job, substitute teaching at EEEM's high school. It went alright I guess, but I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions for dealing with students that just don't care. Do I just ignore them and let them fail? They're not really disrupting the class to the point that the others can't learn, so I just let them talk, just wondering what you would do in a similar situation.

Oh, and should I send EEEM to the principal's office just for fun?

[One Skunk Todd]

Do they still have corporal punishment?

[Antrax]

The best way to induce participation is through the application of questions to the class. It's important not to let any one student (or group of students, for that matter) to dominate the lesson by continously answering, but rather occasionally direct questions (preferably the easier ones) at the weaker/less interested students. Also, positive feedback encourages more students to participate.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[VinnyQ]

I think this thread should be placed in the Educator Forum



Advice to Mith: Crack the ruler across their heads.

[Ghost Post]

ignore them. nothing is more annoying that a teacher who focuses more on the people who just don't care that those who actually want to learn something. and yes.

[firemeboy]

Depending on who you listen to, there are anywhere from 4 - 12 different learning styles. One of which is for a teacher to stand up, lecture, and then the student to do work to show that they understand. Many of the 'idiots' are simply intelligent people who have been completely negleted by our school system. It is true they show a lack of intelligence and desire, but there were probably bright youngsters full of potential when they started kindergarten. Two or three years into public school and they probably fell behind and were labled 'slow'. Extremely unfortunate. If you are aware of the different learning styles, you can have different activites to accomodate each learner. Probably not something you can do as a substitute, but if you really want you can try.

[Nick]

Try throwing a chair through a window, that will get their attention.

[Aarondalf]

You gotta learn their green asses some responsibility!

[Internet Stranger]

I used to be annoyed in school when assholes like Mith felt I needed to participate more. Dude, just let them fail. Focus on the ones that actually want to be there. The rest will eventually figure out what learning is about after all.

Besides, youre teaching the smart kids, not "consumer math" (ie: math for gang members)

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"I didn't know she was your sister I swear!"

www.InternetStranger.com

[EEEM]

You don't have to talk about me like that, Mith. Just because I disappear for half an hour of the class doesn't mean I'm a slacker. And you let me go!

Mr. Ward (the teacher who Mith is subbing for) hit someone with a yard stick in our class. He constantly verbally abuses us. We all love him.

My advice to you, Mith, is let the slackers slack. I know them and I know the school. There's little Ward can do and he's a pretty inspirational teacher, so there's some doubt that the month you'll be here will make a huge difference. They'll just grow to hate and disrespect you if you challenge them. They don't mind failing. Teach, and if they listen, they listen. But don't force anything on them.

You're doing a good job, by the way. Everyone likes you in my class. But we're the good kids.

[mith]

You are?

[extropalopakettle]

At least you're just a substitute. It's worse when the ones that don't care suddenly start to care a day before the final exam. You won't have to listen to that.

Why not just say something like "Look, I know some of you don't care about school, and that's OK, because let's face it, we'll always need people to flip burgers, scrub public toilets and pick up the trash, but we can't afford to pay them a decent wage. So we'll need people who have no alternatives - because they didn't care."

[EEEM]

Yes. We are. Did they give you trouble when I was gone? Just wait until you get Squee's class tomorrow. They're hellions. And Squee and his pals are insane.

[mith]

That's ok, I'll just post about what he does.

[Zarriar]

Originally posted by extropalopakettle:

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Why not just say something like "Look, I know some of you don't care about school, and that's OK, because let's face it, we'll always need people to flip burgers, scrub public toilets and pick up the trash, but we can't afford to pay them a decent wage. So we'll need people who have no alternatives - because they didn't care."

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LOL!

I told a friend of mine who is a teacher in Australia to say something similar to that. He said that the Board of Education didn't allow it. Very sad.

[Lepton]

I wish I had had Mith as a sub in high school, he r0x0rs.

The subs that I *did* couldn't comprehend Monty Hall. Bah!

[Ghost Post]

then why did you do them?

[BraveHat]

Originally posted by extro:

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Why not just say something like "Look, I know some of you don't care about school, and that's OK, because let's face it, we'll always need people to flip burgers, scrub public toilets and pick up the trash

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Don't forget "come up with the theory of relativity".

[Gomez]

@Bravehat. Great post, wish I'd thought of it.

[Antrax]

Hm, from what I was taught, a good teacher doesn't let anyone not participate. It's possible all those students are latent geniuses who are so intelligent they have nothing to gain from mith. Alternatively, they could be lazy or slower, and not feel comfortable with participating, or be afraid of mockery, or be afraid to fail, etc. Every student who doesn't participate in class, or doesn't understand the material, is a failure of the teacher. One shouldn't take the easy way out and say "hah, he'll fail the course, that'll teach him to listen next time". Your goal, as a teacher, is to make sure every single student understands, and passes the class. Every failure is yours. Of course, it's less relevant to mith, who's a sub, but I don't like the attitude I see here, and I hope none of those who experssed the "screw them" attitude aren't real educators.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[firemeboy]

I agree with Antrax here. There are people who don't do well in the public school system, but it's not because they are all dumb. Some of them may be slower, but that dosen't mean they are not able to learn. Some of them may actually be brilliant and unable to understand the material because of the way it's presented.

That being said, teacher's are placed in a near impossible position. They have material that needs to be presented and 'learned' by the student, but because of the various learning styles they would have to come up with various ways to present the material. All within the alloted time. Next to impossible when class sizes are large, they are confined to a classrooms, and have limited resources. Sometimes the best way to teach math is to take a kid out on a football field or a construction site.

I don't envy teachers in the public school system, or even private ones as well. But I love teaching my son. There is nothing better than teaching. There is a spark that happens in a person's face when they learn something well. Nothing better.

[mith]

Today has been a breeze so far. I don't really have much trouble explaining something as simple as reflections. That, and the class was about 9 students. So it went well. All the classes on B days are small.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to be a normal sub. At least this way, the students know I'll be here for a while, and I'm not going to just put up with whatever they want to do.

Oh, and I agree with fmb, teaching can be very enjoyable under the right conditions.

[mikegoo]

Antrax, what percentage of a student's education do you put on that student's shoulders?

[Bicho the Inhaler]

[Antrax]

mikegoo, zero. It's not correct, but it forces you to acknowledge the burden of responsibility you have
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[firemeboy]

quote:

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At the age of 12 he taught himself Euclidean geometry. Einstein hated the dull regimentation and unimaginative spirit of school in Munich. When repeated business failure led the family to leave Germany for Milan, Italy, Einstein, who was then 15 years old, used the opportunity to withdraw from the school. He spent a year with his parents in Milan, and when it became clear that he would have to make his own way in the world, he finished secondary school in Arrau, Switzerland, and entered the Swiss National Polytechnic in Zürich. Einstein did not enjoy the methods of instruction there. He often cut classes and used the time to study physics on his own or to play his beloved violin. He passed his examinations and graduated in 1900 by studying the notes of a classmate. His professors did not think highly of him and would not recommend him for a university position.

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http://home.inforamp.net/~schwartz/toppage5.htm

[Bicho the Inhaler]

Originally posted by here:

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Although he got generally good grades (and was outstanding in mathematics), Einstein hated the academic high school he was sent to in Munich, where success depended on memorization and obedience to arbitrary authority.

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Okay, maybe I was wrong. Also, I thought Einstein did well in the secondary school he went to in Aarau, but I couldn't find much information on his experiences there, only

Originally posted by ibid. (next page):

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He was advised to study at a Swiss school in Aarau; here his teachers were humane and his ideas were set free.

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[Porro]

The teacher that got massive respect at my school (in yon good auld UK) used to chuck Black board rubbers and chalk (if in a generous mood) at the non-attentive, chatting pupils.

That teacher demanded respect....and got it.

I'll never forget Mrs. Andrews. What a Maths teacher!

Do you still have blackboards?
Can you still throw things without being sued?

I'm serious here!

[Nick]

I agree with Antrax here, when kids first go to school they are so keen and are excited about learning. However a steady diet of boring projects that seem irrelevant, teachers with no time, parents who don't see the value of education and peers who belittle any academic achievement soon knocks the enthusiasm out of them.

I really believe that everyone is a natural learner but that we tend to teach in unnatural ways. The fact is the kids at school are still learning but not about the stuff in the text books, hacky sack and how to sleep in class as I recall.

[EEEM]

We do have chalkboards, and Mr. Ward has thrown things at us on numerous occasions. But I don't think Mith could get away with it, unless it was my class. I visited Mr. Ward in the hospital today and his wife said she thought the nurses were going to poison him because he'd been an ass all day. He threw utensils at them and refused to let them draw blood until they gave him more doses on his morphine pump. Gotta love him. Mith has some big shoes to fill.

[wordcross]

I've had a whole range of teachers, from the best to the worst, and I can say only this:
To be truly successful as a teacher, it is not enough simply to make the children learn, you must make them want to learn. It can be daunting, but if a student has a drive to learn, he will excel even in situations when the teacher's methods are lacking and inattentive.

I had some excellent teachers in Elementary school, most especially the 5th grade. I still love to learn even today, though many of my teachers in College hardly have the time to devote to caring about their students. I did have a math professor, though, who was more inclined to be interested in the lives of his students, especially if he though it might help a flagging student. Self-esteem is important, but only about being able to learn. A child who is called stupid or slow will most likely begin to behave that way. Self-esteem overall doesn't hurt, but it doesn't affect their learning as much if they are simply unpopular among other kids.

I really need to re-assess my use of the word "only"...

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I'm not an actor, but i play one on TV.
GLih8evilstuff: I hope you never call me, my caller ID would explode.

[firemeboy]

[mith]

Yeah, my 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade teachers did that very well. You could usually tell in middle school (even in high school) who had had some of them, they were usually in the honors classes or whatever.

Anyway, the calculus class today went well (IMO anyway ). Didn't have to throw anything at all. (Don't think I won't, EEEM! )

[Pablo]

Go rent the movie "Stand and Deliver" with Edward James Olmos. It may not provide your answer, but it will inpire you to keep trying.

[mikegoo]

"Stand and Deliver" was not a terribly realistic version of the actual events.
This: http://reason.com/0207/fe.jj.stand.shtml is a summary of the real story. Jamie Escalante did not simply touch a class full of students and magically get them to do calculus and care about their education...he built a program over ten years (involving feeder middle schools, his high school and a nearby college!) that allowed students to choose to work hard and get ahead, even encouraged it, but did not force anyone who did not want to be in it to be in it.

I'm amazed by the number of posts here using the term "make". Make a student participate, make a student want to learn. One person can not make a person do anything. A teacher's role is to offer opportunities for a student to learn...to always encourage a student to take these opportunities...to attempt to make the material more interesting to the student (which often ain't easy with current required curriculums), but ultimately it comes down to the student.

[Antrax]

[Pablo]

Originally posted by mikegoo:

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"Stand and Deliver" was not a terribly realistic version of the actual events

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So what? It's inspirational anyway, and if I were a teacher, it would motivate me. Nobody watches these movies and expects them to be accurate. They're movies. It didn't portray itself as a documentary.

[mikegoo]

Sorry Pablo, I was not saying the movie is not inspirational, nor that the message isn't good. On the other hand, if a movie claims to be based on real events I feel it should at least come close to the truth. If you read the article I linked, I think you will see that the real story is at least as inspirational, but also points out what happens in the real world which is as improtant as a nice Hollywood ending.

Antrax...why are you equating what I am saying with not giving a shit about my students?

[This message has been edited by mikegoo (edited 10-25-2002 05:01 PM).]

[firemeboy]

I agree with what Mike is saying, you can't 'make' a student do anything, but what I think Antrax is saying is that too often that's used as an excuse by teachers not to try. I also agree with Antrax that you can get to almost any student. You can't make them learn, but you can help them want to learn.

[EEEM]

Class was fine today. If you call all of us being totally bewildered and 'cooperating' on the quiz fine... We are baffled, but it's not your fault. We usually move a little slower than this, that's all.