Magic: The Gathering

[DrJones]

I wanted to start a thread, but I didn't know what one would be the most interesting. I decided to start with the easiest one, as I have no experience as educator, and I don't know how will evolve this thread.

You may ask any question about cards, deckbuilding, strategy, colors, and rules.

[pikachamp]

I think I know this already, but just to make sure. If I play Meddling Mege and declare a card, and Mage leaves play, the card can't still can't be played, right?

Also, are you available to play on Magic WorkStation?

[This message has been edited by pikachamp (edited 04-10-2004 07:22 PM).]

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Actually, pika, the named card is unable to be played for as long as the Mage is in play, as the Mages text is an ability. If I successfully remove the Mage from the In-Play zone, I can play the named card.

[This message has been edited by i_h8_evil_stuff (edited 04-10-2004 07:24 PM).]

[Courk]

Can I naturalize a rancor?

[pikachamp]

Sure, but it'll just go back to their hand.

[Vegetable]

What are the methods of victory besides bringing an opponents life to 0, and what are some of the cards that do this?

[Dread Pirate Westley]

Decking your opponent (There are plenty of milling cards like Millstone that accelerate the process, although generating huge amounts of mana and braingeysering them is good, too.)

Playing a "you win" card like Coalition Victory or Test of Endurance and meeting the required condition.

10 poison counters (Marsh Viper gives 2/hit; most trigger on dealing damage, so if you enchant them with Hermetic Study, you can send the counters straight to their head. A few (Swamp Mosquito) trigger on attacking and not being blocked.)

Getting your opponent to concede. (Included only for completeness)

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The sooner you accept one simple truth, the sooner we can all get along with our lives.

I'm right.

[pikachamp]

Mindslaving your opponent into resurrecting Phage.

[Dread Pirate Westley]

Or to put her directly into play from his/her hand (Using a card such as Quicksilver Amulet).

[Coyote]

As an 'Old School' Magic player, I'd be interested in hearing a capsule summary of how the resolution of 'the stack' goes, particularly in regards to things like damage-dealing/prevention, counterspells, and spells that were formerly regarded as interrupts. Can a counterspell counter something several places down in the stack? How about if you Chaos Lace and then Red Elemental Blast a spell? And how does Deflection work, so far as targeting spells in the stack?

[Antrax]

Seeing as I'm being flown to San Diego to take my Level 3 Judge Test, I believe I should be of some assistance. So let's see:

If I play Meddling Mege and declare a card, and Mage leaves play, the card can't still can't be played, right?Wrong. Meddling Mage's ability is of a kind that's called "static ability", and it only works as long the card is in play. Abilities by default work only while the card is in the "in play" zone, though there are examples to abilities, even static, who work from other zones. However, those are usually clearly identified.

Can I naturalize a rancor?Absolutely. Rancor is an enchant creature, and thus is a legal target for naturalize. Assuming no other effects, Naturalize will resolve, successfully destroying the rancor, which will be put in the graveyard, and the game will "notice" the trigger for its triggered ability has happened - it went to the graveyard from play. Before the next time a player would receive priority, the game will throw "return rancor from your graveyard to your hand" on the stack.

What are the methods of victory besides bringing an opponents life to 0, and what are some of the cards that do this?The second most common way of winning Magic games is what's called "decking" your opponent - making him draw more cards than he has left in his library. The decks that do that are of one of three types - either get a ton of mana and use something like Stroke of Genius or Braingeiser, or play a large number of spells in your turn and then conclude with a Brain Freeze, or use the slow milling effects like Millstone, Grindstone and Mesmeric Orb while keeping your opponent from winning in various ways.
Other than that there are poison counters (Marsh Viper, Swamp Mosquito etc) and unique "you win" cards - Test of Endurance, Epic Struggle and the such.

Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Antrax]

Coyote's questions won their own post because they're more technical:
As an 'Old School' Magic player, I'd be interested in hearing a capsule summary of how the resolution of 'the stack' goes, particularly in regards to things like damage-dealing/prevention, counterspells, and spells that were formerly regarded as interrupts. Can a counterspell counter something several places down in the stack?
Firstly we'll define a term - "Active Player". The "Active Player" is the player whose turn it is at the moment.
Now, as the turn goes along, there are several junctions where players would normally be able to act. The first of these junctions is the Upkeep, which I'm sure you remember. At every such junction, the Active Player Receives Priority. A player may only play spells and effects when that player has priority. So, let's say we're at the Upkeep now. The game gives priority to the active player. Now he can play all the spells and effects he likes. As long as he doesn't Yield Priority, it's his, and only he can play effects. Whatever spells and effects he players "go on the stack". The stack is just a zone in the game, like the "in play" zone or the "library". So when you declare a spell and pay the costs, the spell itself goes from your hand (usually) to the stack. Let's say it's my turn, we're in the upkeep, and I feel like playing Psionic Blast and targeting you. I have priority, I declare "Psionic Blast", pay 2U and off to the stack it goes. Now, I don't have anything else to do, so I Yield Priority.
Now it's your priotity, and you can play spells and effects as you please. It'll remain your priority until you Yield it back to me. You feel like using your Zuran Orb, so you declare you use it, sacrifice a land, and to the stack goes "Gain 2 Life" whose caster is you. Now the priority is yours again, and you don't want to get hit for 4, but alas, you are out of counterspells. So instead you cast Ancestral Recall, targetting yourself, and it goes on the stack too.
The stack looks like this right now:

code:

---

Psionic Blast


Zuran Orb's Ability


Ancestral Recall

---

Now, you're out of effects, so you Yield priority and I get it again. but I don't have much to do, either, so I pass again. When both players pass in succession, the last effect on the stack is resolves. So the game resolves ancestral recall, and you draw three cards. Now the Active Player gets priority again. That's me, and I decide what I really feel like now is casting Sudden Impact on you, seeing as now your hand is so full. So I declare "Sudden Impact", pay the costs, and it goes on the stack. Then I'm done and I pass priority to you. You still don't want to get hit by Psionic Blast, and now you drew a Counterspell. So you declare "Counterspell", pay UU and target "Psionic Blast" on the stack. It's a spell, so it's a legal target. Now the stack would look like this:

code:

---

Psionic Blast


Zuran Orb


Sudden Impact


Counterspell

---

You're done for now, so you pass. I also pass, and the last spell on the stack resolves first, meaning Counterspell. Counterspell cancels Psionic Blast, and removes it from the stack to your graveyard. Now the stack looks like this:

code:

---

Zuran Orb


Sudden Impact

---

And the active player gets priority again. That's me, and I have nothing to do, so I pass. You pass too, and we resolve the last spell on the stack, Sudden Impact. Sudden Impact resolves, dealing you three damage. And alas, you were on 3. BEFORE any of us would get priority, the game checks to see if anything interesting's going on. Then it sees "oh my, Coyote's on 0 life. YOU LOSE". A big "YOU LOSE" pops up and the game is over, despite the fact there's an effect on the stack that would save you, had it been resolved.

So to summarise:
In every such junction of decision, the active player gets priority.
After resolving every step on the stack, the active player gets priority.
The stack is just a game zone, and cards can go there like anywhere else.
A player may only play spells and abilities when he has priority.
A player only loses priority when he or she passes it.

Can a counterspell counter something several places down in the stack?
Yes. It's on the stack, it's a spell.
How about if you Chaos Lace and then Red Elemental Blast a spell?
You would play Chaos Lace, targetting the spell. Then pass priority. Your opponent would pass priority. Chaos Lace would resolve, making the spell blue. Now the active player gets priority. When it's your priority, you will be able to play Red Elemental Blast on the now-blue spell on the stack.
And how does Deflection work, so far as targeting spells in the stack?Any spell on the stack can be targeted by it. When it'll resolve, you'll be able to change the target of whatever spell it targeted. For example:
I cast Lightning Bolt, targetting you, and pass. You cast Counterspell, targetting my Bolt, and pass. I cast Mana Drain, targetting your Counterspell, and pass. You cast Deflection, targetting my Mana Drain. The stack looks like this:

code:

---

Lightning Bolt


Counterspell


Mana Drain


Deflection

---

We both pass. Deflection resolves. You say "Mana Drain's new target is the Lightning Bolt on the stack". Now the stack looks like this:

code:

---

Lightning Bolt


Counterspell


Mana Drain

---

We both pass, and Mana Drain resolves, countering the Lightning Bolt. On the stack is only your lone Counterspell, targeting the Lightning Bolt that isn't there. We both pass, and the spell is countered upon resolution (the new term for "fizzles").
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Coyote]

Of course I meant 'Thought Lace', not 'Chaos Lace', but you got my intent. Thanks for a clear and detailed explanation--I think I learned a few things here. There was a time when I would have laughed at an opponent who tried to use Ancestral Recall to get a Counterspell!

[DrJones]

That's amusing, I didn't know there were lvl 2 judges on the Greylabyrinth. Most of the job has been done by Antrax, Pikachamp, Dread Pirate Westly, and i_h8_evil_stuff, so I'll complete only with some comments.

First of all, here's the Autocard Window. Use it to find the text of cards you aren't familiar with.

are you available to play on Magic WorkStation?
No, sorry.

Can I naturalize a rancor? As said previously, you can. If you want to know ways to deal with a rancor, there are some:

- Responding to the "Return to hand" trigger by removing Rancor from the graveyard, for example, with a Withered Wretch.
- Responding to Rancor being played by removing its target, giving it untargetability, or protection from green. Rancor will get countered (previously fizzled) and won't come back to the hand. You may also counter Rancor with a Counterspell.

Finally, you may use cards against enchant creatures, like Presence of the Master, Dense Foliage or Song of Serenity. Or against green spells, like DeathGrip, or discard effects, like Coercion.

What are the methods of victory besides bringing an opponents life to 0, and what are some of the cards that do this?
Besides decking you opponent (directly or indirectly, there are decks that simply avoid decking themselves, using Gaea's Blessing or skipping their turn, as do decks around stasis), poison counters, and "you win" cards, there were decks that won abusing the tournament rules. It was stated that if you won the first game, and the second game ended in a draw, you won the match. Some cards used in this strategy are Shahrazad (if the game takes too long, it's a draw), Divine Intervention, and Worldgorger Dragon (it may cause an "infinite loop" where the game can't progress, thus ending in a draw).

As an 'Old School' Magic player, I'd be interested in hearing a capsule summary of how the resolution of 'the stack' goes, particularly in regards to things like damage-dealing/prevention, counterspells, and spells that were formerly regarded as interrupts. Can a counterspell counter something several places down in the stack? How about if you Chaos Lace and then Red Elemental Blast a spell? And how does Deflection work, so far as targeting spells in the stack?

As there is no longer a Damage Prevention phase, regeneration and damage prevention effects work like a 'shield' on the creature, that last until the turn ends, or the creature is destroyed/receives damage. Those effects now target creatures and players, instead of damage triggers (that's it, now you can't prevent damage to a Black Knight with a Healing Salve, and you can kill a Skulking Ghost with a Samite Healer).

Also, as interrupts no longer exists, every spell played counts as succesfully played even if it gets countered, so you will draw a card if you have a Recycle in play, play a spell, and gets countered.

Outside tournaments, you may play using fourth/fifth edition rules if you and your opponent agree.

[This message has been edited by DrJones (edited 04-11-2004 07:07 AM).]

[Antrax]

[DrJones]

Under old tournament rules, a draw was handled by giving each player 1 point. so, if you went 0-1 and the second game ended in a draw, the result would be 1-2.

Of course, this got changed many years ago, as it was too easy to abuse this rule.

[This message has been edited by DrJones (edited 04-11-2004 08:54 AM).]

[Legend of Tenshi]

What LD spells would you suggest are best for an aggro/LD deck based around leathal damage with a magnavore?

If I submitted a decklist for my MBC (red splash) would you be able to recomend changes?

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The Minister for Thread Hijacking wants YOU!

[Antrax]

What LD spells would you suggest are best for an aggro/LD deck based around leathal damage with a magnavore?
What format?
If I submitted a decklist for my MBC (red splash) would you be able to recomend changes?
I'd do better than that - I can give you an advice without even seeing your deck list. If you want to play MBC, you can't splash red. You know what the "M" stands for, don't you?
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Tenchi, I used to have a great deck based on LD and Magnivore. Here's what I suggest:

Stone Rain
Rain of Tears
Choking Sands
Befoul

If you're really desperate:
Wildfire
Burning of Xinye
Wake of Destruction
Epicenter

Only play the following if you ever happen to get enough lands on the board to pay for it and a Magnivre afterwards:
Jokulhaups
Obliterate
Devastation
Decree of Annihilation

[Antrax]

The deck you're suggesting would be black and red. That means it won't be able to handle enchantments at all, and won't have any mana acceleration. This adds up to a "bad deck". A much better combination is to play green and red, which allows you to play cards like Birds of Paradise for that second turn LD, plus Naturalize and Creeping Mold for versatility.
But again, I'll need to know the type.
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Back when I made this deck, nobody ever thought of an enchantment stopping the deck, they all just said "Oh, I'll just use tons of lands." Yes, my group was a bunch of newbies.

...And then somebody played Worship, and I was ruined.

[Antrax]

It is generally not a good idea to build a deck that auto-loses to anything. Sometimes, within metagame considerations, you do it, but that's about it. You can't just disregard a whole type of permanent.
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[DrJones]

quote:

---

What LD spells would you suggest are best for an aggro/LD deck based around leathal damage with a magnavore?

---

If you're going to use mainly black with a few red spells, I would use Rain of Tears, Rancid Earth, and Stone Rain. With some mana artifacts like Sol Ring, you could add Wildfire. I know your deck is not type II, as Magnivore can't be used, and I guess you are playing "casual". If you have duals and city of brass, you may use also Pillage.

[Courk]

So they don't hav interrupts anymore? I have some old cards that say "play this ability as an interrupt (or something like that)." When can I play this ability? What is it if it's not an interrupt?

[Antrax]

All interrupts are now instants.
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Sniklac16]

Well I'm too lazy to read the entire thread but the question I have is what colors work best together? I have a red/black deck and a green/white deck that work pretty well and at one point I even had a white/black deck that worked oddly well together. So what do you think is the best deck to have?

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"Stories just show the writers imagination but poetry is writing from the heart"

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Well, you can get any colors to work together, but the ones that work together the bect can be found on the back of the cards.



Look at that color wheel in the middle. Take any color, pair it up with a color next to it (like blue/black, for an example). Any of those should be fine.

[Antrax]

There is no "best deck". If there was, Magic would suck as a game. What there is is a selection of deck types based on the cards currently in the type, as well as your own personal style. When I was a tournament player, almost all my decks were either Mono Black or Green and Blue, simply because these suited my play style best. I know players who play Mono Blue or Blue/White in almost every format, because they are geared on control. To each his own.
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[DrJones]

[Courk]

What is the most expensive legal card?

Why did they make a set like Unglued? If it's not legal for tournaments, who would buy it? Wouldn't Wizards of the Coast just lose money off of it?

Personal question, feel free to nto answer it: What is the most expensive card you've ever used?

[Lilifreid]

Cause Unglued is the coolest!

I bought a booster box, and it's the only cards I kept when I stopped playing. I will be buying a box of the new Unglued set if/when it comes out.

[Sniklac16]

I haven't played in about a year. Hey lilifreid, I was just wondering if your brother still plays?

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"Stories just show the writers imagination but poetry is writing from the heart"

[This message has been edited by Sniklac16 (edited 04-16-2004 08:33 AM).]

[Legend of Tenshi]

Unglued is the only set to cause a mjor non-card based rule to be added to the floor rules. The tempo ruling for removing your trousers/skirt

I would say that there are definate 'best' decks in standard. Ravager/Affinity and Goblin Bidding just stomp out all other at the moment. Affinity is so good it is now a deck archtype in type 1.

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Stupidity. Ignorance. n00bness. Hijacking. unfounded assumptions.

When you powers combine, I am captain clunker

[Sniklac16]

Ya I found out the hard way that Goblin Decks are really fast and really hard to beat. I once had a creature that was a 4/4 flyer with a protection from all colors, but I traded it in a deal to get a whole booster box filled with MLB Showdown cards.

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"Stories just show the writers imagination but poetry is writing from the heart"

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Actually, they're making a new "Unglued" set, named Unhinged. It's supposed to be released in November of this year. Check Mark Rosewater's articles in the archives of www.magicthegathering.com , should be within the past three weeks. When I get home tonight, I'll edit this and put the links below.

Edit: Here are the articles:

Ach! Hans, run! It's Unhinged! (April 1st, 2004)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/203

Ach! Hans, run! It's the sneaky people from magicthe gathering.com! (April 2nd, 2004)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/205

Unhinged or No? (April 5th, 2004)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr118

[This message has been edited by i_h8_evil_stuff (edited 04-16-2004 05:23 PM).]

[DrJones]

Courk

quote:

---

What is the most expensive legal card?
Why did they make a set like Unglued? If it's not legal for tournaments, who would buy it? Wouldn't Wizards of the Coast just lose money off of it?

---

If by expensive you mean, the highest priced card I've ever seen (legal in tournaments), I would said a Foil Pigmy Hippo for six thousand Euros. Some misprints like the blue hurricane could cost as much as six thousand dollars. Of course, if you mean the highest priced card someone actually bought, I would said a First Edition Black Lotus (600$).

The highest casting cost on a card is found on Draco (16), though the first version of Aladdin's Lamp used two fives to indicate its mana cost (10), which was interpreted by many people as a total casting cost of 55.

Unglued was a joke set directed to casual players, that's it, players who play the game because it's fun. It wasn't tournament legal because it contained manual dextery cards, something proven too much troublesome at tournaments. It also introducted dices, which weren't well received.

Note: though Unglued cards weren't tournament legal, they could be played on the Arena League back then. They were funny.

[This message has been edited by DrJones (edited 04-16-2004 04:14 PM).]

[DrJones]

Courk

[pikachamp]

What exactly is the "Goblin Bidding" deck?

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

I'm not too sure, but I think it uses Patriarch's Bidding, combined with a whole lot of gobbies.

[Dread Pirate Westley]

I'd guess it uses a lot of Goblins with Patriarch's Bidding. (3BB, Sorcery, Each player chooses a creature type. Each player returns all creature cards of a type chosen this way from his or her graveyard to play.) Obviously, you choose goblins. Maybe you have a card in play that has a "comes into play" trigger set to goblins, or even creatures.

Here's a decklist that was the first hit on Google. (Subtle hint that you should put forth at least a minimal effort before asking such a question.)

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The sooner you accept one simple truth, the sooner we can all get along with our lives.

I'm right.