The Game of Go

[Vinny]

casinopete,

How do you get better at playing GO by playing Poker?

[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-06-2004 08:24 PM).]

[Pigboy]

Poker and Go...Hmm sounds like a good philosophy for life.

[Vinny]

[casinopete]

The essence of go is in making threats, and convincing your opponent they must respond. In other words, bluffing.

This is most clear during a ko fight, when every third move is literally a direct threat, but it is the core idea in the rest of the game as well. You make territory by threatening to kill an opponent's group, or just keep it from making eyes. You make threats at forming large territories to prod them into invading, so you can chase their attacking group around. Any sente move (a move that keeps initiative) is generally considered worth double what a gote move (one which loses initiative) is worth, so if you convince your opponent to respond when he may be able to get away without it, you double the value of your moves. Perhaps most important is knowing when not to bluff. You can't win at poker bluffing every hand, and the same goes for go.

There are other key ideas that overlap, too. Laying down a strong hand when you feel it can be beat is (imo) the most impressive part of poker, and it's very important to go, too. Often accepting that you intend to sacrifice a stone will give you multiple valuable threats to save it - worth more than actually saving it in many cases.

Further, the ability to ferret out what your opponent is doing - how he sees the board/hand is critical to both games.

And of course there is the base reason, that both games are based mostly on logic, so practice at one develops underlying skills useful to the other.

There was a Korean Pro 4-Dan named Jimmy Cha who moved to the US and instead became a professional poker player. I've run across quotes of him saying the games are much the same, too.

[Vinny]

Wow! Thanks for that, petesio! That's certainly very helpful.

Hey, since we're here, maybe we should explain the Game of Go to the non-Go players.

Where to begin? ...

You go first!

OH nevermind. Here!

http://www.sentex.net/~mmcadams/teachgo/

Basic

Basically, you play on a 9x9, 13x13, or 19x19 boards. You can play on any other size board if you wish, but those three are the most balance and common setup.

A 9x9 board for the GL.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

You have black stones and white stones. The player with black stones always goes first.

It's a 2 players game. You take turn placing stones on intersection where the lines meet, including the edges of the board.

A piece or a group are captured if all its surrounding points are occupied by the opposing opponent pieces.

e.g.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black stone dead!

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black stone dead!

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black stones dead!

Ok I tire. Will continue lesson later on.

And I want to post some popular Go problems later on, especially for Coyote's enjoyment. I am thinking also of making one up for you to solve. I've encountered a few interesting setup while playing that I think might make good Go puzzles.

[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-05-2004 09:06 PM).]

[Vinny]

Suicide move

You can not play in a position that will cause any of your stones to be covered on all side.

Black cannot play D6.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black cannot play F5.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black cannot play A1.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

These are call suicide moves. Suicide moves are not allow.

However, if by placing down a stone into a surrounded position, and the board is set up in such a way that you captured your opponent pieces, there by causing your piece/group to no longer be surrounded, then it's ok.

e.g.

The board is setup thus.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black can play D6, capturing white piece at E6.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

The rule of KO

This rule is the most complicated to understand. What this rule stated is, to paraphrase, "You may not play a stone that will cause the board to be in the exact same setup as the immediate previous setup."

For example, following the move in the above example, after Black captured the white stone at E6, White cannot immediately play at E6 to recapture the black piece at D6, because this will result in the board to be in the exact same setup as the immediate previous setup.

White must play somewhere else on the board first before he can play E6 again. If Black doesn't plug up the hole at E6 after White played somewhere else, White is welcome to play there to capture the black stone at D6 (the board will not be in the same set up as the immediate move before at this point). The rule of Ko is now apply to Black. Black cannot play at D6 until he played somewhere else first.

To understand this rule, imagine what would happened if this rule doesn't exists. White would play at E6 to capture black at D6. Black then play at D6 to capture white at E6. Then White would again play at E6 to caputer black at D6, and so on. The two players can theoretically play the same move over and over forever. This rule prevent that from happening.

I think "KO" means "eternity" or "infinite" in Japanese. (Feel free to correct me at any time, pete).

Be careful though. Sometime you will encounter a setup where it looks like it's a KO move, but it's actually not.

Here's an example:

The setup
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black played at C4 to capture the two white pieces at C3 and C2.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

It is NOT a KO move if White then played at C3 to capture black piece at C4 (the resulting setup is not exactly the same as the immediate previous setup). Thus, it is allowed.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

[Vinny]

Making Two Eyes

To illustrate this setup, first look at the following:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black can play at D6 to cover all surround points for the white group, and thus capturing all the white pieces.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Now imagine if the board is set up thus:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Black cannot play at D6 because it is a suicide move (the white group still have the one point at F6 that isn't occupied). Conversely, Black also cannot play at F6 because that too will be a suicide move (with D6 still left unoccupied).

The white group here is labeled as "alive", because no matter what Black does, it cannot capture that group of white pieces. This is one of the most important strategy of the game. You will need to be able to keep your pieces alive by creating two eyes.

Here are several more examples of "two eyes" setup. Note that it is best to use the edge because it requires less pieces.

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Go Board

---

White Black

---

Go Board

---

White Black

---

[Vinny]

Ending the game

While the game consist of two players alternatively placing down stones, a player may "pass" his turn and let his opponent make another move. He may pass as much as he want.

A game is over when both players passes consecutively (one pass, then the other also pass).

All pieces captured are called "prisoners".

You tally up the score by adding the number of prisoners you captured from your opponent, plus the number of unoccupied regions that your stones completely surrounded.

For example:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

In the above example, White has the above region surrounded, and black has the lower region. These are called "territories". If both players pass at this point, the game is over. White would have 36 points from his territory, and Black would have 27 points from his. White wins the game.

Another example:

Let's say that white has captured 10 black stones earlier during the game, and the board has resulted in the following.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Both players pass, thus ending the game.

In the above setup,

White has 5 points from surrounded territories (A8, B9, I4, I5, I7)
+ 10 prisoners White captured earlier.
White has a total of 15 points.

The white stone at F1 is considered "dead as it stand". If both players passed and the game is over, any stones that are obviously dead are removed from the board. If either one of the player wish to "dispute" the deadness of any stone or group of stones, the game can continue and the two players play it out. The white stone at F1 is obviously dead because Black can play at G1 to capture it, or if White play at G1 first, then Black can play at H1 to capture both white stones at F1 and G1.

Black has 5 (A1, A2, A3, A4, B4) + 8 (E7, E8, E9, F5, F6, F7, F8, F9) + 4 (F1, G1, H1, I1)
Black has 17 points from surrounded territories.

+ 1 from prisoner.

So Black has a total of 18 points.

Black wins.

Note that the unoccupied point at I9 is called a "neutral territory", which are points that are not surrounded by either Black or White stones. These points are ignore, giving neither Black nor White points.

[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-05-2004 09:50 PM).]

[Vinny]

Ok, that's pretty much it! (Did I miss anything, pete?)

Pretty simple, right? Y'all can go play. casinopete can explain the ranking system and handicaps if anyone is interested. I am not too keen on that subject.

Now,

Here's a introductory GO problem for your enjoyment. I am grabbing this from a book.

Puzzle 1:
Problem type: Black to live.

Originally posted by The Book of Go, William S. Cobb:

---

It is Black's turn to play. Make the black stones safe.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

---

[casinopete]

Originally posted by Vinny:

---

Ok, that's pretty much it! (Did I miss anything, pete?)

---

Not really anything critical. To your first example in post 7 I might add that the reason the "top" is white's is because white can demonstrate that he could kill anything black could put in that territory - but that's at least implied by the list of rules you gave, so I'm not sure I really needed to make it explicit. fnord.

Other than that...

senseis.xmp.net is a terrific resource for all sorts of information - anything you could possibly want to learn about go.
kgs.kiseido.com is the best place to actually get some experience playing online.

[casinopete]

Well... okay, you did miss one thing.

Black gets an advantage by playing first. In olden times, this just meant that the stronger player took white to make the game more even, but some time a few decades ago, they decided to actually allot white some points to make up for the difference, which is called komi.

It was set at 5.5 for awhile (6 expected, the ".5" was to prevent ties), but now 6.5 is most common. Strangely enough, the fewer points available on a 9x9 almost perfectly counters the greater impact of first move, so the 6.5 komi is used in both 9x9 and 19x19 games.

[casinopete]

And you asked about ranks:

The ranks span from -30 to 9 (with no 0), 9 being highest.

Instead of "-"s and "+"s, the words "kyu" (learner grade) and "dan" (master grade) are used. I believe many martial arts use the same terminology. So when you first learn the rules, you are a 30-kyu player, and as you get stronger you move up to 1-kyu, then 1-dan, and when you get to the point where you are one of the strongest amateurs in the world, you are 8-dan or 9-dan.

When discussing professional grades, there is a slightly different breakdown - it can be assumed that all professional players are at least 8-dan in strength, but a beginning pro is called a 1-dan professional, and the ranks climb from there to 9-dan professional.

The grades are normally abbreviated as 30k, 1k, 1d, 7d, 1p, 9p, etc, where k = kyu, d = amateur dan, p = professional dan.

There is another important point to mention. Japan's ranks are not the same as China's ranks are not the same as European ranks are not the same as American ranks are not the same as online ranks. China and Europe's ranks are roughly equivalent, but are normally between one and two ranks tougher than Japan or US - so a European 6-dan would likely be 7-dan or even 8-dan in Japan or in the American rating system.

To further jumble things, the strongest go-playing nation in the world is South Korea, and they use a different rating system breakdown, leaving out amateur dan ranks. I'm not sure what the bottom of their system is, but it goes from x-gup to 10-gup to 1-gup right into 1-pro.

None of this has yet mentioned the span between ranks, and I'm not exactly certain how best to do so. In the AGA (American Go Association) ratings, the ideal is that a player will win roughly 5 games out of 6 with a player a rank below himself - but I know this isn't a constant way of determining ranks. But since the ranks match up pretty well with one another from system to system (other than the offset), such a span explanation should be fairly adequate.

[Vinny]

Oh hey, I play better using a real GO board, and not on the Internet. I tend to play too fast when I am playing on the Internet. So I try not to play online so much anymore, and just stick with playing the local Go gangs (all 2 of them).

[kevinatilusa]

With regards to your posted problem, would something like this work?

Black plays B1
If white doesn't play A1, black plays F1 or G1, capturing C1-E1 and guaranteeing a second eye.
If white plays A1, play F1.
If white doesn't play B1, play B1 to achieve Nirvana.
If white plays B1, play B3 followed by A2 or A3 to achieve whatever state is above Nirvana.

[casinopete]

precisely, Kevin.

Here's another, Black to Live:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

note: in problems like this, you can assume that white will live on the outside.

[Vinny]

[A4, then connect at C2]?

[kevinatilusa]

I'm not sure what the requirements are for "living" here (have at least one piece alive in the region? Have them all survive?), but I think white can respond to your move by playing to C3, simultaneously threatening B2 (capturing the left group of black pieces) and C2 (capturing the right group of black pieces).

[eixdeuce]

Vinny,

I believe the first move must be B2

[Vinny]

Kevin, black to live puzzle means you have to save the entire group. And you're right, [A4] would not work. I forgot to count the liberties for the left group, thinking I could get them to join up before they're taken.

eixdeuce, I think you are right. My head hurts trying to see so many moves ahead in my head. I was thinking maybe Black won't have enough room left to make 2 eyes after the series of moves is played out. Let's see:

[
after Black play at B2, White play C3,
Then Black play C2 to join the two groups, White have to join up at A4,
Black then have to close off at A2 ...
That'll leave A1, B1, C1, and D1 open.

Can't White play in any of those position to kill the group? C1 maybe?

No wait, yeah, I see it now. A1 is a sure eye for the Black group, and nothing White could do then to plug up B1, C1, or D1.
]

Thanks!



[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-08-2004 01:01 AM).]

[casinopete]

eixdeuce and kevin are correct.

Vinny, I am sad to say, is not correct. "Black to live" doesn't mean you need to save the entire group - so long as you have anything alive in the area, you have satisfied the problem. If you have to save all your stones, the problem will actually require "Black to save all his stones" and if there are multiple ways to live, the problem will be called "Black to achieve best result" or something similar.

Now seems a prudent moment to add a detail or two to what makes a group alive. As Vinny mentioned earlier, a group must have two eyes to live - or section off a large enough area that it can demonstrate that it can make two eyes.

for instance:
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Here black has one big eye, but it is still only one. White will eventually fill it in and kill black, so black is dead.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Here, though, black is alive, since no matter what white does, black can make two eyes:
Go Board

---

White Black

---

An example: white plays E5, b plays E6, w D5, b F5, and black has demonstrated he will get two eyes.

And I need one more example to show off fully what I'm talking about:
Go Board

---

White Black

---

This situation differs from the other two, in that at first glance you cannot tell whether black is alive or dead. If black plays next, he can take E5, making 4 eyes, and ensuring that he is alive. If white plays first, though, he will take E5 himself, and black will be unable to make more than the one large eye. Thus, if the situation were like:
Go Board

---

White Black

---

Then black would be dead. He can play E3, capturing the 5 white stones, but then white will just E5, returning black to an obvious dead shape. The group of white stones in the middle is called a nadake, which basically just means large single-eye shape, and is probably the most common way of killing groups.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

The white shape here is also a nadake. If black captures at E4, white will respond with E5, and b will not be able to get two eyes.

[This message has been edited by casinopete (edited 05-08-2004 09:47 PM).]

[casinopete]

Which is, of course, all an introduction to a new problem. fnord.

Black to Live.
Go Board

---

White Black

---

[Antrax]

g2 threatening assorted nastiness. This robs white of f2, which is the only way he can save his group, and since he can't capture the black group fast enough, he has to respond with h2, to which black replies g1. Now white has to try a differend approach, so he plays e2 to rob black of that square (otherwise black gets an eye and another one after capturing the white group). However, black luckily still has two liberties, so he responds with f2, white can't stop the capture on e1 and after that black will have two eyes. Any attempt to counterattack with white will be too slow, as black captures on a3 after a1 and a3 for white just can't work fast enough.
To summarise:
g2 h2
g1 e2
f2 "So what, I still have the entire bloody board, have your stupid live group"
Antrax

------------------
"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[casinopete]

Correct, Antrax. The point was to illustrate that: the simple connection isn't enough, as black can't get two eyes that way, and that the "S-shaped Four" is not a nadake, as black can get two eyes when he is later forced to capture.

I will take your self-assurant tone as a request for a harder problem, so:

Black to Live:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

fnord.

[Vinny]

aye, my bad Kevin. I had a bad teacher
That's what he told me the puzzle was, to save the entire group.

Antrax, what if

after you played G2, White connect at H2,
you connect at G1, White then connect at A3.

At that point, you can try to kill the inside White group, but all it takes is for White to cloze off at A1 and played at D1 to force you to close all your eyes except for at F2, then you will sore be sorry.

Ok, nm, this is why I am bad at this

There's also an eye at D1 after you take the White prisoner.


Oh! New Problem! My take?

Black is S.O.L.

Black is so so screeeewed.

At this point, if I am playing Black, I'd cuse out the other player, then flip the board onto the floor.

Then I go home and play a little counter-strike, where I kick A$$!!!!



[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-09-2004 03:24 AM).]

[Antrax]

Black's chances obviously lie in capturing the white group. However, the straightforward a4 loses to d3, after which white can capture the small, disconnected black group followed by the larged one. Playing D3, however, is also bad after some inspection.
It would appear that the best move for black is b2. If white tries to separate with c2, black responds with c1, and white can't attempt to capture the smaller black group without losing a liberty, resulting in the white group being captured. d3 lets black responde with c2, capturing the white group. a3 is responded to with a4, and white can't capture the larger black group fast enough. so white plays a2. Now black is facing the threats of c2, a3 and other assorted nastiness. However, he replies with d3. Now if white tries c2, black plays b1, and white can't capture without being captured, even if he tries to play a3, to which black replies with a4, denying that liberty and again screwing white.
To summarise:
b2 a2
d3 screwed
Antrax

------------------
"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[This message has been edited by Antrax (edited 05-09-2004 05:44 AM).]

[Vinny]

Antrax,

White follows up with A4, saving the inside whites. Black would then have to hussle for survival.

[Antrax]

Close what? On A4, I just play A2. He has to play A3 or he loses the smaller group. I responsd with C2, again threatening the group. He has to defend with A5. I connect on d3 and make two eyes in the corner.
Antrax

------------------
"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[This message has been edited by Antrax (edited 05-09-2004 06:48 AM).]

[Vinny]

White already played A2.

To summarize, what if this happened:

[
b b2, w a2
b d3, w A4

White can connect, Black ded.
]



[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-09-2004 07:42 AM).]

[Vinny]

I am thinking Black have to play A4 first, but then I have no idea how to prevent White killing the two Blacks at D1 and D2.

[casinopete]

Originally posted by Antrax:

---

Close what? On A4, I just play A2. He has to play A3 or he loses the smaller group. I responsd with C2, again threatening the group. He has to defend with A5. I connect on d3 and make two eyes in the corner.

---

b B2, w A4, b A2, w A3, b C2 (as you state) yields:

Black to Live:

Go Board

---

White Black

---

white is not in immediate atari, so can wait to A5 - he will instead B1, and black has only one eye.

[Vinny]

I think I got it:

[
Black White
A3 A2
A4 D3
C1 B2

This is cool, because the eyes are formed by Black and White groups. White can't play at either one cuz then Black can kill. What's the term for that, Pete? A Mexican Stand Off?
]

[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-09-2004 07:30 AM).]

[casinopete]

And Vinny, as you imply, white's response to black A4 is indeed d3, cutting off black's two stones. I'll go ahead and inform that there would then be nothing black could do to save his stones - so A4 is not the correct starting move.

[Vinny]

so did my solution worked?

[casinopete]

Vinny: After b A3, w A2, b A4, white will C2 rather than D3.

[Vinny]

so then:

[
b A3, w A2
b A4, white will C2 rather than D3.
b D3,

at this point, Black whole group is connected, and have a total of 4 liberties, while White inside group has only 3. Black can kill then, right, if they start chasing each other?

]


[This message has been edited by Vinny (edited 05-09-2004 07:46 AM).]

[casinopete]

b A3, w A2
b A4, w C2
b D3, w B1

fnord.

[Vinny]

yay!

Now give us a good Kill problem, pretty plz? I like killing more than defending

[casinopete]

yay?

Black has not lived... so why, "yay?" fnord.

[Vinny]

oh :*(

[Vinny]

I thought it was obvious that if wB1, then
[
b A3, w A2
b A4, w C2
b D3, w B1

b C1, putting B3-C3-C2 in atari at B2, and if White plug up B2, Black can still kill at A1.

Now I am not sure if there's enought space to make 2 eyes though, let me see ...
]