This is a hoot...

[Samadhi]

[Digglu]

actually on a somewhat more serious discussion of evolution and the possibility of God in the mix i'm sure some of you have heard of irreducible complexity (something like it was mentioned on that page actually, about how the eye won't work if a single part is missing). there was this seminar thingy at my school last semester (at which some religious woman was being incredibly petty and close-minded, apparently) which discussed it...for those who don't know what i'm talking about it's basically the idea that evolution may be true but once you get to a certain point there's no way that the parts could have individually evolved (i think the example used was the various parts of eukariotes (sp?)) and so something must have happened as a catalyst, and that catalyst is God (or some other intervening force, possibly aliens). yeah. sorry i'm just bored at work and thought i'd bring this up and see what you guys thought

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"You may not make sense, but at least you're enthusiastic about it"

[El Camino]

Part of me can't believe that the intelligent people here at the GL are actually wasting their time arguing against this ridiculous website.

But of course, part of me wants to also beat this website to a bloody pulp...
The author's entire argument is based on "God created it all." It has no logical basis. It's like arguiung with someone who believes a car works "by magic." I'm no expert on evolution theory, but as far as I know, nowhere does it state that all of the sudden a fish "found legs" or a bear "turned into" a whale. In fact, by what I learned of evolution, it all took extremely long amounts of time.

I like to think of the current human race as a good example of evolution. The average life span of a human is constantly increasing. One hundred years ago, people lived something like 25 years fewer on average (I'm too lazy to look this one up, sorry). This increase is a result of our use of our abilities as homo sapiens to adapt to our surroundings. Speculatively, humans 1000 years from now will probably look and seems almost like a different species from humans 1000 years ago.

Also, I don't believe that creationism and evolutionism can't co-exist. As Digglu just said, I believe God acts as a "catalyst" to move along the evolutionary line. God granted us the ability to evolve, so that we would survive.

Just my two cents.



[This message has been edited by El Camino (edited 06-20-2003 07:04 PM).]

[pikachamp]

of course not, they'd be us, just older

[MatthewV]

under their understanding of the theory of evolution everything is almost logical. Of course, I won't agree with an ouce of "evolution=everything happening by chance"

Isn't strange that the human hand looks remarkablely similar to the "hand" on a whale? Geee, why would it have those finger-like structures when they aren't being used fully?

I think that they took it to enough of an exterm that most (I hope) people will take it as being a load of (highly complex, made in a way that could never happen by chance) beatle dung

[MatthewV]

although that was probably the worst part of the site...if you need more brainwashing read their "great stories"! (amoung other things)

[Death Mage]

Fish have never come on land. Nope, nuh-uh, never happend. The mudskipper is just a myth, like Bigfood, Jackalopes, and honest Televangelists.

[MacadamiamaN]

Originally posted by that weird truck/car thing. Is it a truck, no, is it a car? pick-up? huh???:

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The average life span of a human is constantly increasing

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Although the average lifespan of a human is constantly increasing, the limits really aren't by much. 100 years ago, people could still lived 80, 90, 100 years, and today they still can, but it's just that more of them tend to do so. At least in my opinion.

[MacadamiamaN]

Though I have seen a woman who can increase the life span of worms by about quadrouple by doing something to do with zapping certain parts of its reproductive system, or something, I forget.. Though I think that same technique applied to humans is probably very plausible. I'm surprised nobody's tried it yet.

[Chuck]

I suspect that our increased life expectancies are due to nutrition, sanitation, and medicine.

[Vegtable2001]

I agree with Chuck on this one. Evolution is based on survival of the fittest. People are dying less because we are more able to treat viruses etc. with antibiotics. Because people are living longer, and nearly everyone survives long eneough to reproduce, then all genes have an almost equal chance of surviving, not just those that are more suited for life in whatever environment. Basically Darwanism is dead in humans, at least in my opinion.

Now for a couple great quotes from the article

[extropalopakettle]

From the site:

[casinopete]

El Camino: please be reassured that none of us take it seriously enough to argue. any posts that looked like argumentation were either just having fun, or simple expression of shock.

[Courk]

From the "Wonderful Creatures" section (my emphasis):

quote:

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Just a while ago, we mentioned the penguins that live in the coldest part of earth, and how Allah has created them appropriately for that environment. On the other hand, camels are animals that were created to survive the hottest climates on earth. Camels are commonly used for transportation in the desert. Deserts are vast areas of sand and the temperatures in these areas can rise as high as 500 C (1220 F).

You might have experienced temperatures around 300 C (860 F). Even at such a temperature, you immediately become tired and thirsty when you are out and playing.

Camels can still go for kilometres at temperatures of 500 C (1220 F). They can stay without water for days. This is because Allah has also created their bodies very differently from ours. Camels store the water they drink inside them for long periods and they quench their thirst with the water they carry within them.

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This site is just non-stop fun!

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Save manatees: They're tax deductable!

[Courk]

quote:

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When you are playing snowballs, the temperature is probably only 10 degrees Celsius (50 degrees Fahrenheit) below zero. The penguins live in a place where the temperature falls to 400 C (1040 F) below zero.

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[wordcross]

gee, i wonder if this guy actually went out and did any real research, or if he just threw stuff on a webpage. I mean really, over 1000 degree farenheit, and you only get thirsty?

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If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that a hostage situation?

[casinopete]

such has been my experience.

[El Camino]

Yeah, my increasing-life-span-equals-evolution theory is kind of ridiculous, but I kind of meant it as an analogy.

And by the way, MacadamiamaN, I do believe Chevy classifies me as a truck.

[extropalopakettle]

[Bicho the Inhaler]

For comparison, the melting point of tin metal is 232 degrees Celsius.

[Vegtable2001]

For a good laugh, read the about the author page, and learn how facism and nazism are directly related to disbelief, and how while the author is doing this not for profit, authors of books with a conflicting viewpoint are only sowing the seeds of confusion for profit.

[Silversunset]

I still like the cake example, and the ones that say "you can't do something so perfect by accident"
i'm sorry what??
i've done very very detailed stuff by accident - like learning to put together computers, or fixing things. Trial and error sweetiepie. who says it all happened at once? noone, that's the whole point. they tried A and C, but found it didn't work, so they tried A and B which did then they tried ABC and found it still worked - nature does this - ti's called NATURAL SELECTION.

that made me laugh - good find

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»§ømεŧįmεş ¥øǘ Ĵǘşŧ Ħανε Ŧø Đø €яαžỴ §ħįŧ Ẅħεй ¥øǘ’яε βøεяδ«

42

[MatthewV]

We wont even mention the fact that 500¡C­ 1220 ¡F...

but I will notice that 50.0¡C=122.0¡F

Of course, they really have no reason to forget a decimal point on all of their numbers

[pikachamp]

what would happen if will saw this site?

[Samadhi]

Digglu evolution was heavily discussed (lectured) in this thread.

Here is some info about irreducible complexity. (about halfway through the post)

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A One that isn't cold, is scarcely a One at all.

[Digglu]

yeah i figured it was but i never got around to reading that thread

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"You may not make sense, but at least you're enthusiastic about it"

[Beartalon]

And does the author assume that all other gods of other faiths are just God in disguise? How is that explained?

As far as the cake is concerned, it CAN be explained by evolution. While we can't quite explain God(s), we can imagine what would happen if the cake represented the end product of various lifeforms (ingredients) following an evolutionary process (instructions to bake a cake).

I can take the same ingredients and screw up the directions and get a lump of charcoal, which is NOT a cake by definition, only by process. I can leave out an ingredient and follow the directions perfectly, and it might look like a cake when I'm done, or I'll just get a glob of goo. I can keep trying to do it, and eventually get a good-looking cake, but will it also be tasty? I might have to try again. Eventually I'll get it "right" and that's how I'll produce one everytime until I decide to alter the recipe to give it better qualities (natural selection) and stop making cakes the old way (extinction of the species).

[This message has been edited by Beartalon (edited 06-22-2003 02:02 AM).]

[Samadhi]

Allow me to describe a commercial that plays in my area:

A man is in his apartment alone staring at the ceiling light. He moves to the light switch, pushes it up and the light turns on. He flicks it down and it turns off. His eyebrow arches and he appears to be considering the "Why" of it all. He begins to flick the switch on and off in rapid succesion. Flash to his roommate opening the door to the apartment. The first man stands with a sledgehammer in his hand. The wall from above the socket towards the light has been pounded away and wires are exposed. The roommate says in exasperation, "Dude, what are you doing!" Still working his problem the first man tugs at the exposed wires which makes the overhanging light jostle.
The scene cuts to a clean cut man who says, "C'mon, do you have to have it all figured out? Have a little faith." He also enjoins the watcher to come pray with him.

I LOATHE this commercial.

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A One that isn't cold, is scarcely a One at all.

[Jack Crazyquilt]

A man is in his apartment alone, staring at the ceiling light, which is currently not on. Every now and then he bows his head and mutters fervently. As the day wears on into evening, the room slowly grows dimmer. Flash to his roommate opening the door to the apartment. The first man is still crouched down in the middle of the room, muttering fervently. The roommate says in exasperation, "Dude, what are you doing?" The first man says "I'm praying for the light to come on, so we won't be in darkness anymore." The roommate walks over to the lightswitch and flicks it up and down several times. Nothing happens. "You see," says the first man, "figuring out the light switch is pointless. We must have faith! Join me in praying for the lights to come on." Instead, the roommate walks over to a box of lightbulbs, takes one out, and replaces the old bulb. When he flips the switch again, the lights come on. "Praise God!" cries the first man.
The scene cuts to a clean-cut man who says "It's a good thing to have a little Faith now and then. But it's figuring things out that brings enlightenment. He also enjoins the watcher to come think along with him.

[This message has been edited by Jack Crazyquilt (edited 06-22-2003 05:20 PM).]

[The Ktulu]

Very imaginative.
Did you not have faith or enlightenment that I wouldn't put hidden messages here?
At first, I thought the two were going to be the same, but then I read them and realized they were different sides. Neat.

[What if...]

I don't really have much to say (or too much to say that I won't bother because it would take too long). So just remember, have faith in evolution!

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O.K., so how did I screw up this time?

[One Skunk Todd]

Originally posted by Pikachamp:

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the author of garfield should sue

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And Disney too. What a despicable site.

[Samadhi]

What I fail to understand is why some people consider the theory of evolution to be counter-faith or against God.

What we see in the nature of the universe merely Is. It has no impact upon Why (faithwise) really. I have always been willing to concede that when taken figuratively Genesis is pretty good. It's always (to my knowledge) been said that God spoke through Man. How else would he speak but in the terms most easily understandable during that age? And how else would it be written for people of that age? Would the precise mechanisms of evolution been described? I doubt it.

Let Science be. It has nothing to do with Faith. Physics has nothing to do with metaphysics.

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A One that isn't cold, is scarcely a One at all.

[Hitchhiker]

Originally posted by Qirat:

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I myself do not necessarily believe that humans evolved from apes

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Actually, nobody does. The "humans evolved from apes" thing is something that creationists are fond of saying because it makes evolution sound ridiculous.

The actual evolutionist argument is that humans and apes (and lemurs, which I find oddly disturbing) evolved from a common ancestor; basically, that a simpler creature evolved into distinct and different complex species.

[Courk]

My health teacher once said, "If humans are evolved from apes, then why are there still apes?" I wish I had said something, but she's evil and probably would have punished me. :-/

[casinopete]

You admit they will claim faith as the important thing. What is illogical about then providing evidence that their position is rational? ((not talking about the site, you are generalizing))

And why on earth would the agnostics or atheists give a damn? Isn't it funny that they feel the need to "disprove" everything they don't believe in? What could possibly be at stake that you feel the need to be so venomous?

[Antrax]

quote:

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Let them get a huge barrel. Allow them to put inside this barrel all the atoms that they wish. Permit them to put inside the barrel whatever else their hearts desire. Let them put inside the barrel all the things necessary to make a living being. Then they can either warm up or electrify this barrel. Allow them to carry out whatever they want freely. They can keep watch over the barrel for millions of years. (They can pass the task to younger evolutionists, as their lifetimes would not be enough.)

What would happen as a result of all this?

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I got as far as here, at which point I bookmarked this site. I'm going to use it to torture my friends. I really like this part, because this experiment WAS carried out, and the result WAS amino acids. Doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to see a living thing created over a long enough span of time. But I digress. This site is too funny.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Lilifreid]

So many typos... And there is an extra heart (valentine style) beating on the outline of the human body....

Hides

[What if...]

Sorry casino. I tend to leave out parts of what I'm saying when I'm in a hurry, that's not what I meant, what I said was pretty bad when I looked at it. So now I'll try to extricate my self from the mental mire, with a clarification. What I have found amusing and irritating, is that I have had two people start telling me (I mean only two have initiated the conversation) the evidence for why evolution is wrong and when I disagreed, they brought faith in as their weakest arguement). One told me immediately that he would not consider any arguements about evolution that would validate it, only the ones disproving it, because he knew that evolution was wrong anyway, then promptly stopped talking about it. Since I wasn't going to just go along with what ever he was saying, he moved on. I don't think that this is typical of creationists (specifically those of the religons of the book who do not believe in evolution), but I do tend to doubt claims brought from them more than from others because many are looking for ways to disprove evolution because they know it's the truth rather than because they are trying to find out if it is. The other was (at that point) my best friend, who felt he was losing our debate (we were talking about probabilities, and he didn't know much about what evolution was anyway), and ended with telling me that he believed in Genesis no matter what. My problem was not with his arguements or his beliefs, it was that in this debate (and some afterwards), he felt that his faith should convince me of evolution, even though he made no attempt to convince me that Genesis was literally valid (did he feel he didn't need to?), yet that was his one faith-based arguement. He used faith to try to convince me when nothing else would work, because it was something I automatically shared with him.
But what about the agnostics and atheists? I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in Genesis being the literal way the world was created. And I haven't ever said in a creation-evolution debate that Genesis is wrong, but when evolution is attacked by creationism, I usually find faulty logic nearby. I didn't and don't have any intention of attacking beliefs, and I am of Samadhi's opinion that faith and science should be left apart.

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O.K., so how did I screw up this time?

[casinopete]

It appears I have misunderstood you entirely, then. You specified creationists, but in the second sentence, after you'd already described what sounded to me like a general rule - so it seemed you were questioning faith in general, rather than the behavior of creationists. Since I can't imagine a member of any faith questioning faith as a whole, I assumed you were arguing from an agnostic or atheist position.

Now, after having read your clarification, I don't think you're really talking about faith at all. I've debated with many such people as you describe, and their ranks are not exclusively creationists, nor fundamentalists, nor even religious. In fact, though it reflect poorly on the state of our world, most of the debates I have been in have been of this type, where one (or sometimes both) side(s) have made up their minds beforehand. Obviously, some of the point of the debate is wasted - it becomes merely a game.

A difficuly, though, is that sometimes one side is right. Take the Monty Hall Puzzle as an example. I bet most of us have tried to explain it to someone else, and of course they argue, and you really have no choice but to be arguing from a position of definite knowledge. How sincerely do you want to listen to his arguments well into the second hour of the argument? When you've heard them from the last four people you tried to convince?