This is a hoot...

[EEEM]

Just popping in to say that this is priceless and I intend to share it with all of my friends. Oh the joy.

[extropalopakettle]

casinopete - the Monty Hall analogy really sums it up for me. I'm not an atheist, but I understand the theory of evolution. (Just look at what I just said - oy - as if one had to be an atheist to understand the theory.) I don't think I've ever heard an argument against the theory of evolution from someone who seems to understand it (same as with the correct Monty Hall answer). That web site is perhaps a bit of an extreme example, but so often it comes down to a "straw man" argument - they set up some ridiculous and flimsy but false notion of what the theory of evolution is (the straw man), and then procede to effortlessly knock it down. I don't know if all of them are ignorant of what the theory is - I fear some are more duplicitous - that they deliberately mischaracterize it to sew shut the eyes of the less inquiring minds.

[extropalopakettle]

BTW, I have to admit I was surprised to see that web site wasn't from a supposedly Christian perspective, but from an Islamic one.

[One Skunk Todd]

Extro, I've noticed more and more recently that fundamentalist Muslims (Islamists?) are using the same tired and discredited fundamentalist Christian arguments against cosmology and evolution. Although this guy at least vaguely seems to acknowledge the apparent age of the universe.

[This message has been edited by One Skunk Todd (edited 06-25-2003 10:47 AM).]

[One Skunk Todd]

Also, I called the Disney legal department yesterday and directed them to the "Getting Going" page.

And I sent an email to Jim Davis through the Garfield website.

[casinopete]

[completely aside]
One Skunk Todd: You have the coolest name I have ever encountered online.
[/completely aside]

[Courk]

OMG! That's great!

[One Skunk Todd]

Casinopete, Thank you.

Courk, I have no illusion that the site will be shut down. But I would get a giggle if he was forced to remove those images. I'll check it every so often and see if anything changes.

[Courk]

I know it won't be shut down. But it's still great

[What if...]

I like

quote:

---

These creatures appeared all of a sudden during the Cambrian period. Before them, no other living beings existed on the planet.

---

So algae are non-living?

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O.K., so how did I screw up this time?

[What if...]

Also, the about the author thing says

quote:

---

It is unlikely that those who read these [his] books and give a serious thought to them can any longer sincerely advocate the materialistic philosophy, atheism and any other perverted ideology or philosophy.

---

which I find a bit odd. The description suggests he may have a bit of an inflated EGO.

------------------
O.K., so how did I screw up this time?

[What if...]

If you're interested, he has copies of his books...
Edit-I'm looking at them and he apparently sees the rise of Christianity as the beginning of an entirely peaceful era which ended with the rise of paganist Enlightenment thinkers.

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O.K., so how did I screw up this time?

[This message has been edited by What if... (edited 06-25-2003 09:31 PM).]

[Chuck]

Here's another such site.

Excerpt:

[Werebear]

I read the first page and this page... so someone may have said this, but I don't care. ROFL.

Who was it who decided that there was evolutionism, and there was creationism, and never the twain shall meet? Are the creationismists saying God couldn't create evolution? Are the evolutionists saying that the "big bang" (or the matter that was contained in it) created itself? Why does everyone pick a few million year range and quibble over it?

*bear stomps away muttering*

[MatthewV]

If there wasn't a God, Man would create one.

[extropalopakettle]

OK, the site Chuck posted lead me to this one.

The only thing I read there was rather interesting: The core of the moon speaks ancient Aramaic. NASA knows, but is keeping it a secret.

[Macros]

for chucks and extros links all i get is a star surfing plus add page.....
antrax, is there online documentation oft he experiemnt you mentioned, i would so love to see that to ram it down several peoples throats.
Qirat (i am not mocking your faith/religiopus beleifs in anyway, i respect that you beleive what you beleive) BUT saying god was always there, is as ludicrus as me saying the universe created itself.
most of my thoughts have been said, repeatedly, but im going to post them anyway
people who publish stuff like the athiest mr gruff should be prosecuted for indoctrination (or attempted ) its so unbeleiveable bigoted i cant beleive it (funny though ) althoguh it is a well known fact all athiests are depresed people who like nothing better than turning young children against god and into christians haters just as they themselves are.
i only read some of the original site, i was laughing to much, it reminds me off the narrow minded saved christians in school, whos argiuement for everything is, god exists, you're going to hell.
where did god come from?
he was always there.
did he create himselve?
er, he was always there
well, if allah can do it, (assumedly self creation/always be there) isnt it logical to assume other entities could also exist? thus validating several other religions, and discrediting yours?
no.
oh, i see, just asking.

[casinopete]

Hey, Macros, have you ever heard of Camp Quest?
It's a humanist summer camp where they teach kids all about those nasty Christians.

A typical night around the campfire:

quote:

---

Camp director Edwin Kagin, playing the foil, stubbornly insisted on their [unicorns] existence and challenged the more than 50 campers and counselors arrayed before him on wooden bleachers to prove him wrong through rational argument.

When a gaggle of Canada geese glided past overhead before landing on a nearby lake, Kagin declared it a sign he was speaking truth. When campers pressed him on how he could be sure unseen unicorns were real, his only defense was that it had been "revealed" to him.

Finally, 11-year-old camper Christine Warner blurted out, "You shouldn't be talking us into believing in unicorns because we know they're not real, and if you want to believe in them, keep it to yourself!"

The St. Louis girl's comment prompted laughter and applause from the other campers, as a self-satisfied smile spread across Kagin's face. His none-too-subtle point had been made: There's little to be gained in arguing with cocksure religious believers; just tell them to bug off.

---

A couple other quotes:

[Hitchhiker]

Macros: u rokk.

casinopete: that camp seems to be no better and no worse than thousands of religious camps that have similar agendas. Kids are resilient - many of them learn to distinguish horsesh*t from common sense. I actually see nothing wrong with the second quote, which seems to be an atheist "parable" of sorts, and one that could spark a great deal of discussion (assuming they're allowed to discuss it); it stands in direct contrast to the oppositional, hostile, and one-sided nature of the opinions in the third quote. I don't think I'd send children of mine to this camp, but presumably their parents are aware of the "party line" taught there and support it.

It would be great if a camp, or a school, or a website, could teach kids to be all that we want them to be -- smart, savvy, open-minded, honorable, compassionate, and happy. But in the end, it's their parents who have that job.

[casinopete]

Hitchhiker: I was not claiming it was the least bit different. In fact, I was claiming they were precisely the same. Ignorant buffoons come in every color and creed, and it is not the fault of the religious (or irreligious) system they adhere to when they prove themselves to be hypocritical fuckwits.

[Antrax]

Heh. 7 years ago, I'd've argued with CP that it's completely different, and teaching kids that religion is stupid is a very good thing to do

Anyway, I found that atheist thingamajig really funny. Thanks
Antrax

------------------
"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[casinopete]

wow. just noticed your new title.

Does this make me an Emergency Backup Prune-Happy Illegitimate Child (EBPHIC)?

[Antrax]

Not unless you were Emergency Backup Ahora En Espanol until now
Antrax

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Bah, I don't believe in anything

[casinopete]

No hablo espanol. No ahora, no jamas.

[Hitchhiker]

*high-fives casinopete*

I got online to add "We all know there are small-minded bigots in every walk of life" to my previous statement, and saw that casinopete had already added "Ignorant buffoons come in every color and creed."

[extropalopakettle]

Originally posted by Qirat:

---

you're both assuming that time constraints apply to God. God was not created, he has always existed.

---

Originally posted by Macros:

---

Qirat ... BUT saying god was always there, is as ludicrus as me saying the universe created itself.

---

Why is it ludicrous?

According to the big-bang theory, all matter and even space and time were created during the big-bang. If time was created then, did it always exist? Because there was never a time when it did not exist. (obviously, right? ... a time when time did not exist?)

Why is it ludicrous that something might exist outside the dimensions of space and time, and which created those dimensions?

[crazycellist]

I really don't see the point... I mean, why go to all this work to convince kids that evolution is wrong, while admitting that the earth is millions of years old? You just end up concluding that the Bible can't be taken literally after all. If you're going to go to the all this effort to brainwash people with bad information, you might as well do a thorough job...

The curriculum my church uses for children's Sunday school has a lesson for the 4/5 graders with very similar logic... luckily, our children's minister knows better, and we teach something else that week. But its three points are:
1) There are no transitional fossils (which of course there are)
2) The odds against evolution are impossible (it quotes them as 1 in 10^(10^21), which is significatly worse then even most anti-evolution people quote them, and I can find that number quoted absolutely nowhere else, so I don't even know if they did get that number from anywhere but their own heads, much less what dreadful logic backed it up. But I'm guessing their heads did it. I mean, one in ten to the thousand billion billion just sounds fun)
3) Some biology teachers don't believe in evolution (well, some Christians do, so there goes that argument... in fact, I bet some biology teachers who believe in evolution are even Christians!)

[The Doctor]

This (or at least Chuck's link) has GOT to be a joke. No one would ever believe this to be an argument (whole article found here):

Originally posted by objective.jesussave.us:

---

Logic dictates that if evolutionism is true and the eye was built incrementally over time from nothing to its present state of functional wholeness, then it must have at some point in the past been only half of an eye.

Only a moment's thought on this supposed ancestral eye lets us see that there would be problems: How would this eye be moved in its socket if it wasn't a smooth spherical shape? What would stop the seepage of light through the top? How would the lens keep from being deformed if it was not held equally on all sides? How would the eye jelly have kept from spilling out of the opened bowl of the half-eye?

---

That is such a non-argument, a 10-year-old could puncture its 'points'. The infintile assumption that 'half-an-eye' means a priori having a bowl-shaped one--with the hole on top--is so ludicrous, I cannot believe this to be serious. The site does not even give any contact info.

Your thoughts?



[This message has been edited by The Doctor (edited 07-28-2003 11:30 PM).]

[Macros]

Extro. my point was. most christian arguemnts are based on "just accept it, gods there.
i dont accept that. i could say, accept this : one day a paperclip apeared, followed by millions of other paperclips, they then generated static electricity and exploded, causing the universe as we know it.
that is ludicrus, theres no evidence to support it, wait, whats your arguement again?

[Werebear]

yeah, well *MY* god told me he's the real god, and he said your god SUCKS and nothing he says is right. I don't care if they both follow the same premises, yours is WRONG, and you're going to THE GREAT NOISOME DUNGHEAP. Mine is RIGHT, and I'm going to THE LAND OF CHOCOLATE AND FULL BODY MASSAGES.

[extropalopakettle]

I'll see you there, dude!