Not-Diplomacy (and other Diplomacy flavored ideas)

[mith]

I've been tossing an idea for a two-player Diplomacy-style game around in my head for a few days. Basically, it'd just be a game like chess, but with both players moving at the same time. Preferably, it would be completely fair, but designed so that there are a variety of possibilities for both players (so that they don't keep doing the same thing every turn ). Anyway, basically I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in playtesting it (or several different versions of it) when I get it designed. I'd set the games up in PT so that they wouldn't influence each other. Probably the initial design will have about 21 SCs, and since it's purely tactical, it shouldn't take that long to play. Let me know if you're interested.

[This message has been edited by mith (edited 02-13-2003 02:13 PM).]

[Sparhawk]

I would be interested. One two-player varient that I have played in the past is the following:

1) Use the normal board.
2) Both people simultaneously pick one SC. If they pick the same one, they both pick again but any SC previously picked is no longer available.
3) Once two different SCs have been picked, that is the starting SC for each person. They put a unit there.
4) The game now plays normally, execpt that the first two SCs captured by each side also counts as 'home' SCs. This means that they can build there.
5) First person to 18 SCs wins.

It goes quickly (at least FTF) and appears to have different optimal strategies based on the two starting positions. It does seem better though to start near the middle of the board.

[mith]

I've got several completely different ideas, heh.

1. Both players start with 2 or 3 home SCs bunched together; there are a few SCs between them, and a few behind/to the side of each. The main concern here would be the decision of where to send most of your units.
2. Similar setup, but both players have a home SC near the other player's other two (beside or behind).
3. Start by choosing SC(s) as home. If I did this, I think I'd do it with more than 1 starting. This would make things more interesting (for example, do you try to clump yours together for protection, or spread them out?). The nice thing about this would be that the map used wouldn't really matter as far as balance (though, I don't think I'd use the standard map).
4. A mixture; 2 home SCs, plus you get to choose another anywhere else.

And that's just keeping with basic rules.

[mith]

Ooh, anyone interested in trying Seismic Diplomacy? I may try it for Dip 10.

[Sparhawk]

What is Seismic Diplomacy?

You could also try Pure Diplomacy. This is a board with seven regions, each with a SC, and each region touching the other six regions. Everyone starts with 1 SC (obviously).

[Mikko]

I would gladly help testing a two player variant.

[mith]

Seismic Diplomacy starts like normal diplomacy (or any other variant would work, I think). After Summer and Winter, however, each player gets to send in an extra "move" which affects the map. There are two types of move. If you have something like this:

code:

---

\  B  /


 \   /


  \ /


A  |  C


   |


  / \  


 /   \ 


/  D  \

---

You can change it to this:

code:

---

\  B  /


 \   /


A --- C


 /   \ 


/  D  \

---

In this case, B and D can be the same territory, but A and C can not (you can't form new territories).

The other type is where you have an "island" (a territory entirely surrounded by another); you can connect the island to any territory that is connected to the territory surrounding the island.

There's some other rules, mostly to tell what happens if two players try to do something to the same territories.

[Ferris]

I'd be interested to try either the flood or desert variants: where after a few years, the board changes and reduces the number of SC's until the winner (in 1917 or something) is the one left in control of the solitary SC. I haven't looked, but I suspect that the maps are still there at The Diplomatic Pouch.

They're probably even more work for the moderator though, so I'm not going to push it as a request.

[Ferris]

Ok, here they are:

Deluge ends in 1908.

Sahara ends in 1911.

[CrystyB]

There's the Duo variant for 2 players. I would like to see two people doing the same thing *in there*...

comment on your 2nd idea above: supporting a move to the enemy's HSC would probably be the first thing for each power!

and i was thinking pure diplomacy wasn't each-touching-each, i thought it was the exact graph of connections between GPs with only seven spaces, each a HSC in itself... I have seen it somewhere in my downloaded bunch of variants, just can't remember the name... Found it: basic dip.

Heh, interesting map the SaharaF1911 one... 3 SCs in England and 3 in BAL, NWG & Ire!!!

[This message has been edited by CrystyB (edited 02-13-2003 10:03 PM).]

[Sparhawk]

Here is the description of Pure Diplomacy. If you want a bunch of variants, check out Diplomacy Variants

[mith]

Alright, I've got one map/board designed, I'm just going to make it look a bit nicer. Pretty simple, and I'm going to go with 2 Home SCs fixed and one you get to choose. Sparhawk vs. Mikko. If we get some more volunteers, I'll tweak something a bit and run another. Anyway, should start tomorrow or Monday.

[CrystyB]

i wonder how does everybody feel about a two-player 1 on 1 using the standard variant - 5 countries in civil disorder. I just introduced a friend of mine to the game and ran a short demo game. He chose Russia and i thought i could as well go for the other fast-growing power, France. He won by 1906 b/c he was closer to the Balkans and Scandinavians SCs. The trenches were in NTH-Germany and before i could really push in the Med he collected 18! Afterwards i tried to analyse what would've been my best choice and i think Germany would've done good enough. Attacking right from the start and sending two fleets in the Med to keep it open, he wouldn't have stood much of a chance IMO.

Any other pair you think might be interesting to evaluate?

[Mikko]

Things brings up an interesting puzzle. For each country, how long doeas it take to get

a) 18 centres
b) all centres

If all six other players NMR?

[This message has been edited by Mikko (edited 02-16-2003 02:38 AM).]

[mith]

I thought we also might try the Intimate variant sometime. Basically, each player chooses a country, but instead of civil disorder for the other five, each player gets points to bid on the others with. If you bid the most for that country, you get to control it for the year. The win condition is to get one of your own units (not just one from a country you control) to an enemy home center.

[mith]

Ok, I've got my map ready, and a thread set up in PT. Should I bother with waiting for someone to make it private, or should we just start?

[mith]

quote:

---

Things brings up an interesting puzzle. For each country, how long doeas it take to get
a) 18 centres
b) all centres

If all six other players NMR?

---

We should move this over the VSP. I messed with it a bit last night on RP, I can get Russia to 21 in 1903, AH to 21 in 1904, France and Turkey to 18 in 1904, and England to 16 in 1904 (18 in Spring 1905). I have a feeling that some or all can be bettered. Germany is a bit annoying, I think it and AH are the only ones with even a prayer at 18 in 1903, but I can't even get close with Germany. Italy can get close in 1904, not sure if it can get to 18 or not.

Some numbers:

Theoretical Maximum SCs(Units)

code:

---

          Start   End1901   End1902   End1903   End1904


Russia:   4       8         16(12)    28(16)    34(20)               


A/F/G/T:  3       6         12(9)     21(12)    33(15)


E/I:      3       5         10(8)     18(11)    29(14)

---

As you can see, I haven't got anywhere close to those. Those just take into account the actual best they can do in 1901, the rest are theoretical (if every unit could get a new SC).

[Fried Egg]

An interesting idea for a diplomacy variant would be WWII. The problem is, it would be very difficult to do. I think that you would have to re-carve up Europe (particularly Russia) to do it justice. Not to mention incorperating America in it some how. It would probably have to be a two player game as well.

[dethwing]

Put me down for game 2 of 2 player Dip

[mith]

Anyone else interested in game 2? Any preferences for what you'd like to play? New map by me, same map as game 1 with some twists, Intimate, Sparhawk's, CB's, something else?

[dethwing]

Same idea, but i'd like to see fleets and water in it. Anyone want to play me?

[CrystyB]

i'd go for intimate - it should be fun. But could you wait for the next week to start? I'm in kind of too much things to do ATM...

[mith]

Ok, so games 2 and 3:

Game 2:

mith-map 2, coming soon (with fleets)
dethy vs. ?

Game 3:

Intimate Diplomacy
CrystyB vs. ?

[Sparhawk]

I am foolish enough to be willing to fill into more of these games as needed. Obviously it would be better if someone else stepped up, but if no one else does I am willing to play in multiple games.

[mith]

Heh, ok. I'll give it, say, 24 hours, and then put you in whichever game needs someone.

[CrystyB]

(just for the record, i thought dethy's comment of "with fleets" meant "any version, but with fleets", so my suggestion was just to allow him to play any time soon)

[mith]

I took it to mean same type of map (i.e. with symmetry); dethy, what'd you mean? (And do you want to play game 2, CB, or wait for an Intimate opponent?)

[dethwing]

What's "Intimate" ?

And I meant whatever type of map you wanted, I just wanted fleets to be an option if that's ok. Symetry seems like the best regardless.

[dethwing]

Nevermind found it, not interested in that.

[mith]

Sorry for the delay on Game 2, I finished a map, but I don't like it, and haven't been able to change it so that I do, yet.

Anyway, I'm still not sure who's playing who. CB, are you up against dethy, or do you want to wait for an Intimate opponent? Sparhawk, assuming no one else signs up any time soon, which game would you like?

[Sparhawk]

If no one else signs up, lets do game 2 since Deth is on the list first.

[mith]

Alright, it should (I hope) be ready tomorrow sometime.

Oh, and have you (or Mikko) sent moves for Game 1? I haven't gotten anything recently by email, and so I'm worried it's stopped working again.

[Sparhawk]

I sent something last night.

[mith]

Weird, I didn't get it, and I did finally get some other emails. Try again?

[dethwing]

Bump. Ready to start ours?

[mith]

Map is made, just haven't edited the names and such. I may just wait til I'm back in the states, if that's ok.

[dethwing]

Oh, didn't know that. Take your time.

[CrystyB]

post the map so that i could make the rgn - that doesn't require knowing the names... Although you might consider first adding the names, so that i can order the map and rgn files alphabetically.

[This message has been edited by CrystyB (edited 03-04-2003 12:54 AM).]

[mith]

Alright, I've got a new map made (left the other one in England ); Antrax is looking over it for me right now. Once I add names it'll be ready to go.

[CrystyB]

Left it in England? Couldn't it get scanned and sent electronically?