New Mafia System - vote now!

[Samadhi]

Page 2

[Dragon Phoenix]

Lots of comments, but it boils down to:

[1] the current list is crazy as people will have to wait for years to run their games
[2] the new proposal sucks in the eyes of the would-be mods
[3] no-one comes with a real improved solution that makes the waiting time manageable

Fine. Revolutionary proposal: let the players decide.

Forget the waiting list. Free for all. Start a sign-up whenever you like. Twenty in parallel? So what. The players will select the mods/themes/game sizes they like best. Too bad for the others - who will find themselves full of ideas but lacking players. Not fair, you cry? Come again? Well, if you can't convince people to play your game, is that the players fault? Or?

[mith]

Yeah, that's was my other suggestion. I do think my second suggestion could work. Those people that really want to torture themselves by waiting a year to mod a game? Fine. Those that don't care if they have 50 players or 12, they can mod mini games. So, perhaps something like this:

Mini Games: Each player may play in one of these at a time, and we have as many running as there is demand for. Basic roles only, no themes, limit 12 players.
Small Games: Each player may play in two of these at a time, and we have as many running as there is demand for. Themes allowed, but keep them simplish (if you wouldn't find it in a DP game...), limit 20 players. Mod must have moderated one Mafia game on any site.
Large Games: No limits for players or roles, but must have some sort of deadline system to keep them moving. One at a time, Mod must have moderated two Mafia games on any site.
Old list: Each section in the old list gets one game at a time.

Moderators can be on one (maybe two?) list at a time. Exception is that they can choose to remain on the old lists as many times as they are there already. Other exception is that no matter how many times they can be on the lists, they can not be on the new lists until they are off the old lists. Possibly no new mods on the old list, but maybe just let them choose. Also, possibly, players on the old small list can transfer to the new small list, keeping their spot.

That gives 7 possible games per player. Will players sign up for that many? I dunno. Anyway, that will keep all the old mods in their spots. Those games will be put out slower, but I'd imagine some would move to the new lists to run their games faster, so maybe it'll even out.

What do you think? Everyone's input, please.



[This message has been edited by mith (edited 11-17-2002 09:41 AM).]

[Antrax]

I think this is way overanalysed. Since everybody should aspire to the same thing (fun for everyone), why is this so hard? The original waiting list was an agreed-on thing, because it benefited the community. The new system benefits the community just as well. Sure, we'll need a grace period to ease up the transfer, but the basic principle remains.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Dragon Phoenix]

The more I think about this, the more I disagree with any waiting list. Let the players decide in which mafia they want to play.

I really don't see why this should be different. If Mr.X wants to run any game in VG, but his theme is not appealing (or if he has gained a reputation), he will not get enough players to run his idea. Heck, I myself had to abandon a custom party twice for lack of participants. Why would mafia be different?

[Beartalon]

Sideline

[Dragon Phoenix]

That would indeed happen, BT.

[jadesmar]

mith: You may find that limiting the game's players is so much harder than limiting game's moderators.

[Kazooish]

i think thats the best idea....a seperate mafia forum, mafia games only, post your signups whenever you want....but there should be a rule...you can only have your signup "on" the list for...2 weeks?....so that we dont end up with a mass list of signups....or depending on the game size.....12 player games..signup 1 week.....20-30 player games 2 weeks...massive games...double mods....etc...30+..or whatever, have a 3 week signup period maximum...or something...i dont know...just throwing out more ideas, trying to make something "connect"

[mith]

jade: huh?

Kazooish: we *have* a separate mafia forum. I can understand (I guess) wanting to have GL-only games (even though there are a few on both this site and brunchma that just come for Mafia, and no one cares), but I don't understand needing yet another forum for Mafia. Other than mafiascum's current instability, of course.

[Antrax]

mith, I've discussed the very same issue with DP today. He's like this old and wise sales person, so he said "don't try to understand them, just give them what they want". I've pondered it for a while, so, even though it's downright moronic to open a new forum when we have an entire site dedicated to mafia (and now it's backed up daily!), if that's what people want, so be it.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Lucresia]

I really would like to mod a mini game please.

[Samadhi]

w000t! Market driven mafia!

[Neo]

I really don't care what you all figure out, I don't see myself playing a big part in the decision process, I just want to know whats gonna be done so I can decide what needs to be done to GL mafia.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I would see the creation of the mafia forum as a temporary thing, until the dust settles from all the parallel sign-ups. I think we soon would come to a more reasonable situation (a few months or so), after which we can return to VG. I mean, decathlon is also not for ever, right?

And #2 son, you still have not quite gotten my message. It is understand what they (the potential mafia players) want and give it to them.

[This message has been edited by Dragon Phoenix (edited 11-17-2002 03:39 PM).]

[Antrax]

I understood it perfectly; I chose to distort it a little for the comical effect. I'm sure mith understood the real intention.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Termital]

Heh, I knew that Samadhi would be up for it. The main problem seems to be that there are too many mods for too few players. Maybe market is the eventual solution, and maybe they should all be redirected towards the mafia site. (Yes, I know it's unstable for the moment, and has a clunky, cliched and overburdened interface). If you want a mafia game for GL members-only, do the signup/confirm here, then play the game over there- I don't think there would be any objections to that. And if you don't it's a lot easier to get players there.

In any case, mafia games are besides the focus of the GL, so perhaps it shouldn't be a moderator concern. Just let'em do whatever they want, then delete all the failed signups .

Having said that, I'll have to admit that I only played mafia on the GL. The reasons are twofold: for me it's just a sideline attraction of the GL, and the proper site for it is, to put it bluntly, slow and ugly. Sorry mith.

[Antrax]

[Termital]

Eh, this could just be a personal experience thing, but I've never been around a time when the GL's main functions were inaccessible, but I have happened accross the mafia site in one of its bad days, despite my far fewer visits. I'll take your word for it. Didn't mean to offend the mods.
There's no getting around (for me at least) that the mafia site loads slower. And the mac (metacreation actually) look, especially in that white, looks chunky and ugly. What can I say, I find it very, very distracting.Again, this is just a matter of personal taste. Btw, all these threads on mafia's site health, alternatives etc, shouldn't they be over at VN rather than VG?

[jeep]

Just to point out, Mafiascum has had more than two crashes.... but only two since phpBB.

Daily backup is good. Personally, I've decided to focus on Mafiascum, so after football, here, and Romanian Mafia 15, I'm done with the other sites for now. I might venture back eventually, but I like the dedicated forum.

-JEEP

[Lilifreid]

Ok, I give up and such. I'll go figure out how to run games at mafiascum, this situation is giving me migraines.

[Kazooish]

ok i agree...ill just head over to mafia scum...i thought it had had a lot more problems than just those two crashes...the one game i played there must have occured during one of those crashes...which would account for the dislike i have for it...so ill give it anotehr shot after i finish up rock and pop...to hard to have to check many manhy sites at once :-p

[Dragon Phoenix]

If all those in the GL mod waiting list head to scum, you get the same waiting list problems there.

I am still waiting for an argument why we would not open a mafia forum at the GL and abandon the waiting list altogether.

[Sparhawk]

I am not a fan of opening up the Mafia to everyone. Why? Because it will make things much more chaotic. It may be more 'free market', but it is going to be a pain for the players. We will have to each start monitoring the moderators and determining if they are any good. That is a pain, which is part of the reason the list and the requirements were made in the first place.

I will live with it either way, but I think that opening up Mafia to every mod will still result in a lot of frustration and pain as moderators try to push their games and get no (or too few) participants. So I don't see what is accomplishes other than being perceived as 'more fair'.

Anyway, that is just my two cents.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Sparhawk,
Appreciate you comments, but the problem with the waiting list is that it takes years now before it's someones turn to run a game.
And from the players side, if you do not like a certain game idea or moderator, you will have to wait weeks/months before the next one comes along.

[Antrax]

The look of mafiascum can be changed -- it has skins.
There were two "real" crashes, before that it was mostly mith's dad turning the computer off or something (really). Now it's hosted, and the two crashes were one database-server crash, and another mysterious crash not even the tech support guys can explain. The GL was also unreachable twice in the recent past, we just handled it much faster because pair is better than hostingexe.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Sparhawk]

DP: I understand, and I am not complaining. But you asked for opinions. The truth is that there is no perfect answer (or else there wouldn't be such a discussion). So it is a judgement call as to how to balance things. I am just glad I have the chance to play games like mafia, so I will be happy whatever path this goes down.

[Macros]

i like dps idea, start a forum, let there be a plethora of games, the bad mods willb e fixe din peoples minds, their gaeme will be avoided, go for it

[Samadhi]

Yeah, if someone who sucked starts a new mafia signup the players can determine what happens. Someone could post, "Don't you think you should get a co-mod?" or "What are you doing showing your face around here?" or various other flames. Let anarchy rule!

[Dragon Phoenix]

So, none of the solutions appeals to everyone - surprise surprise.

Whilst we are discussing this, should we not roll out some more games?

[Hitchhiker]

Fezros: If one of you wants to update the "finished game" list, Simpsons Mafia was won by the town (which consisted, at that point, of Apu the convenience-store manager and Snowball the Simpsons' cat). I didn't play in that one but I was an avid spectator.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Some further analysis.

Over the past 12 months we have seen the start-up of 23 mafia games (from 38 to 60). On the waiting list there are 32 people, with a large proportion in the medium/large games (more than we ran over the past 12 months). Conclusion: the current waiting list will indeed take 1.5-2 years or more to resolve.

Personally I think that is ridiculous.

[Antrax]

It's obvious the discussion has stagnated. I think it's voting time. As I see it, the current alternatives are:
1) The free market system. A new GL forum is opened for mafia games, and no regulation takes place.
2) The old waiting list. We continue with the old waiting list, regulated by the same people.
3) The new waiting list. We get rid of the old list (optionally, with giving people who were on it some advantage), and employ the currently-discussed method of mini games, experienced co-mods, tribunal and what have you.
My personal preference is vote: free market. I never understood in whole why people agreed to the waiting list, but while it was commonly agreed I serviced the public by enforcing it (it wasn't without benefit). Now, that the faith in the system is crumbling, I think it's time to play "free for all" again. If anyone wants to mod a game and doesn't get a chance, he can always sign up for the mini game moddling list on mafiascum.
Antrax

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"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Kazooish]

vote :freeforall worst that happens is we give it a try, and then go back to either the old method, or else the mini game method thing....worth a try.

[xer0x]

Vote: free market

No matter what they say, capitalism and economics always triumph in the end...

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The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists. That is why they invented Hell.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Bandwagon: vote free for all

[Werebear]

In the first post - mafia 50 (salem) is over, Cult win, and mafia 55 (LotR) is over, Orc mafia wins. 58 is Mossflower, 59 is Anarchy in the USA, and 59 and 60 should be marked as running.

Oh, and it won't be long now for the Werewolf to either be slain, or claim his victim. I wish I were in that one, but it's fun to read anyways.

Werebear

[Werebear]

Oh, and I do think the games would regulate themselves. I'm not going to be in 10 mafias at once, people can see what's running and decide if they should run them. The only reason I liked a list is so if someone starts a game, someone else won't whine and complain that THEY were going to start one.

Maybe we keep a list, but let the next person start signups whenever they want

Werebear

[Cyberdork]

Vote: Free market

And as a side note after I run my mafia game I don't think I will want to mod anymore, I think there are enough people doing mafia and I have more fun playing in the other games like dethwing's mole game and amb's worst game. There's only so much mafia a person can take before it becomes same old same old. So after my mafia I will mod other types of games, but never a mafia.

[quercitron]

You know, it doesn't matter so much. I suppose I'll vote: free for all but somehow the idea of trying to run a game in a system where 20 signups are happening at once doesn't really appeal to me. A lot of players are just going to try to do every game, leading to lack of participation, logic, etc. I like the Mini Game system on MS; all we need is more active players over there and quicker days (this is both a Mod and a player thing) and the Mod list wouldn't be so long either.

If I do try to mod something on a free market it'll be small. But I suppose we'll see what happens.