Has the free market been working?

[MatthewV]

Although I did not play mafia before the idea came out, it seems that the quality of the game played here have degraded considerablely. I have noticed...
-more games than people
-people who don't keep up with games
-a much higher rate of needing replacements
-games moving much too slowly with bored players

So should the current system stay?

[jadesmar]

And less replacements when needed.

[Leonidas]

I would argue that the problem is not with the 'free market' concept.
The problem is that people tend to go to mafiascum to play mafia...

There are excellent mods here, but players have massively chosen mafiascum.

Reasons (among others):
- Avatars give a fresher look to the interface, and provide players with customization,
- PM system complements email as communication tool,
- Site dedicated to mafia, as opposed to a more generalist site on puzzles and games.

Hmmm. Suggestions anyone ?

------------------
Either the wallpaper goes or I do.
-- Oscar Wilde, last words

[Kazooish]

i would have to agree with matthewv in a way, i have noticed a few games where the mods just sorta dissapear..for no reason (perpetual mafia..grrrrrrrr!)

I think so ideas are -

A. Everyone goes to mafiascum or something to that extent.

B. we make this slightly more organized. You must petition to whoever wants to be in charge of this section to create your game, they can say yes or no, based on whatever they want. If they thinkt he "market" is flooded with too many signups, then they say no. If they think the person has "vanished" once before while modding...they can say no. Its a bit arbitrary...just an idea though...

[Porro]

mafiascum can have problems too.

Normal mafia 10, is on day 2, is nowhere near a lynch, and is currently on page 42. I've been away for a week, and I think my last post was on page 34. That's 8 pages to read, and bizzarley, the voting hasn't changed much :/

I like playing on the GL, in fact I prefer it. Even though the posting and participation has slowed down lately, I'm sticking with the GL.

[Green Crayons]

[Leonidas]

I love the GL. But strangely, I find myself coming here for the 'other' threats now, not mafia: Off topic, News, GL games, etc.

Perhaps what we need is one of those great games that made mafia here a success in the first place (i.e: Star Wars... The Master, where art thou ? )

[Antrax]

You think Star Wars mafia was a great game?!
Antrax

------------------
"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Leonidas]

Well, Star Wars II was really impressive. Especially the end. OcularGold (Darth Vader) had persuaded the Town he was Leia, and finally revealed himself by turning Luke... Hmmm.

(I hear Star Wars I was quite unbalanced, with two thirds of the players being stormtroopers, the rest being either Palpatine or droids).

[Vegtable2001]

I deffinitly agree with the general sentiment. Modding medschool maf has become a living hell. I have massive inactives, and i know for a fact i couldn't find replacements anymore.

[Amb]

I find it massively ironic that mafia scumn with its terrible interface and difficult sized text etc continues to survive more than the brilliantly easy to read and use GL.

The free market experiment has failed sadly, but more due to the fact that we have no new people. Sadly without increasing numbers, the players become lethargic. Silence keeps you alive, but is to a detriment to the game. I noticed after winning GME as SK - I virtually never made it anymore to night 2 alive, and I had better things to do now.

After the dying insect mafia finishes, and designer, I will be running 1 more on mafia scum called Economafia, and I will probably make it invite only... After that I will probably taken another extended break for a year or two...

[Antrax]

I think the mafiascum design is nicer, actually. Also requires less tinkering with to keep alive.
Antrax

------------------
"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[mith]

I agree. And hopefully the new design will be even better.

Yes, we're going to tease you for ages with it.

[Beartalon]

I tried to be a vocal participant - then got muttered at for being too vocal. I enjoy mafia, but I haven't played enough games to tell you if this has been successful, other than to comment on the lack of participation. But is that a GL problem with this forum or a user problem?

I'm assuming you mean there's too many Mafia games ongonig, and people aren't keeping up, or the same players play in most, and this disinterest, even for a while affects several games at once.

[Mackay]

As a player, my biggest problem with this "free market thing" is the constant flood of IMs I've been getting from people saying "Please will you be a replacement in my game?" or, more frequently "oh, by the way, you're in my game now". It's not so bad, except that when there's a game I really want to play in, I generally stuff it up by confusing it with all my other games.

But all in all, I much prefer the GL to mafiascum. Simply because the people are nicer. And I don't like having to log in and out all the time. I find the GL easier to use in general. But I really hope we can go back to the old system. I don't like this "free market" thing at all.

[MacadamiamaN]

I never played mafia before there was a forum for it. I'm guessing that creating a forum (or referred here as a "free market"), eventually leads to the decline in overall quality and increase in overall quantity of mafia games? I guess it's just inflation...

Maybe it's too late to do so, but perhaps we can create a cap on the number of mafia games going at once, and a waiting list to create them. Or maybe that would be too strict (I know I wouldn't mind personally - but I don't mod mafia games really).

I also decided to visit the mafiascum site. I agree with amb that the interface is horrible (though really, any forum's interface is atrocious compared to the GL, seriously). But other people seem to disagree.. I guess it's just my personal preference.

[This message has been edited by MacadamiamaN (edited 04-28-2003 02:49 AM).]

[Kazooish]

Vote: old system own forum

i say we go back to the old system, but leave it in its own forum section.

[mith]

What is it everyone finds so appealing in the GL's interface? We'll keep it in mind for the new board design.

[Logain]

Personally I've never gone to mafiascum to even try playing a game there. I guess I'm very reluctant to add a second site that I'd have to constantly visit and keep up to date with when the GL is enough on its own.

I don't think there should be two competing areas for mafia games actually. Honestly, I'll visit and switch to mafiascum for any future mafia games. I'd vote to delete the mafia forum here all together and make the forum a link to the mafiascum website.

[MacadamiamaN]

why a link, when we can just put the link in the mafiascum site?

Honestly, I don't know what's so great about the GL interface. Perhaps because nobody has images next to their name (except rsa), or maybe it's the extremely uncluttered style. Could be the colors... Probably a combination of everything.

[Mackay]

Vote: No linking to mafiascum

This site is way better. And there are some people on mafiascum who I'd rather didn't find their way to the GL... *shudder* Most of them are great, by the way. There's my disclaimer.

[Antrax]

I used to be against mafiascum because I thought it'll steal visitors from the GL. However, I was painfully wrong, and mafiascum is in fact a different community. Although founded by GLers, it now has groups of brunchers (www.brunchma.com) and even people who just googled for it. It's no longer a GL subsection. That's why I don't think this forum and mafiascum are mutually exclusive.
Antrax

------------------
"If it comes down to a choice between being unloved and being vulnerable and sensitive and emotional, then you can just keep your love." -Victor Mancini, "Choke"

[Kazooish]

i played one game through mafia scum, and working off of what macadamiaman said, the biggest thing, is the complicated organization, i really enjoy the simplicity of the GL forum.

I HATE having the entire logging in buisness, simply type in username and your password when you want to make a post is much simpler, making sure your logged in..etc is pain

[Kazooish]

you know what though...everyone needs to make sacrafices....after whatever games im currently in, im going to stop visiting GL mafia....and move over to mafia scum...iv had some bad luck here with my last game especially..where mole dissapeared.

[MacadamiamaN]

A more in-depth reply to mith's question about the mafiascum design:

"phpbb" icon
links at the top are too small, extraneous links
"joined date", location, and post count under each name is extraneous
"Post subject" is unneeded.
a trillion "back to top" links are annoying
profile, pm, and email links are too big and stuff (and some have AIM and ICQ, etc... links)
pictures, as mentioned before (as well as having both a picture AND a text title)
the "you can" and "you cant's" at the bottom right are extraneous

The reply form is a mess. why the animated emoticons going crazily to the left? why the UBB stuff above? why is the box very small? "subject" is useless.

...that's just my personal view on it. I guess I'm just not used to that site, I suppose you look over those things if you go there alot.

[Green Crayons]

Wow. None of that stuff bothers me. Maybe it's because i found mafiascum before gl, but i prefer mafiascum better. It just looks cleaner, with the layout and everything.

Edit: So. Uh. I guess everything you dont like about mafiascum, i do.

[This message has been edited by Green Crayons (edited 04-28-2003 03:19 PM).]

[mith]

"phpbb" icon - It wouldn't be there if we had ever gotten around to designing a new skin; I don't like it either, but it doesn't really bother me.

links at the top are too small, extraneous links - Really? Even with the little icons and stuff? I've never had any trouble clicking or reading those. What extraneous links?

"joined date", location, and post count under each name is extraneous - I agree here, though the location, or maybe gender, might be useful. It doesn't bother me though, because it doesn't make the posts any bigger

"Post subject" is unneeded. - Agreed

a trillion "back to top" links are annoying - Agreed.

profile, pm, and email links are too big and stuff (and some have AIM and ICQ, etc... links) - These are too big but the ones at the top are too small? And what's wrong with AIM/etc. links?

pictures, as mentioned before (as well as having both a picture AND a text title)
the "you can" and "you cant's" at the bottom right are extraneous - I don't mind the icons, as long as they stay small, though there will certainly be an option on the new board to turn them off. The you cans and you cants are no more extraneous than the Who Can Post? and About Registration things here.

[MacadamiamaN]

The links at the top, in my opinion, should be just like GL's links

Specific extraneous links: login to check your private messages (I think the whole PM thing is useless), memberlist, login (login?? why not just post!), usergroups.

The links for each person (email, IM, info, etc...) should be just as small as the GL links

I also noticed that on the top of every thread, there's "Author" and "Message". That's also completely useless. We know where the author and where the message is!!

by the way, I know it's very hard to design a site. I'm not asking for a redesign or anything; I could never do any better. These are just my ridicules.

[Vegtable2001]

You should be able to jump to any page, not just the 1st 3 and the last 3.

[mith]

We *are* redesigning though, so any input is good.

The PMs are far from useless, much better than having to use email. My email box is full enough with Diplomacy stuff as it is.

The two login things is silly, of course. My hope is to have logging in be mostly for PMs, and you don't have to log in to post (though you can, if you like).

The usergroup link isn't extraneous, it's just not used that often by anyone other than myself and DP. That's where we add people to the mod groups (which allows mods of games control over their threads, and "list mod" members to keep the waiting list and mini games updated).

And there's an Author thing at the top on the GL.

[MacadamiamaN]

There is an author/post thing... Maybe because the GL puts it in text form and makes it size 8 or something, which makes it out of the way. Making it a picture file in size 10-12 with colors and shadows and the such perhaps is a bit too much. I think the skin of the mafiascum site is a little overdone, in that it enlarges a lot of things.

[mith]

Yeah, we'll probably have several options for skins. First design should be a text-only one. Personally, I like all the images, but I know some people don't have cable modems or just don't like them.

[Neo]

GME wasn't that bad was it guys?

------------------
Usually, I try to take one day at a time, but lately, several days have attacked me all at once.

[Macros]

something always annoys me about mafiascum, cant place what it is though.
subject is pretty useless in the reply.
dont think all the emoticons and ubb buttons should be there, when redesigning simplify mith
open market indeed seems to be an awful lot of !! replacements please! but surely a balance will be found over time? and alot of people get out hell about the old lists.

[cuban smoker]

I googled mafiascum! Then came to GL. I like mafiascum better.

Come play (that is, sign-up to be a replacement) Intrigue Mafia, the COOLEST game ever, now in Night 2 with over 350 printable pages worth of text!

Or buy the book! Coming soon from mithPublishing!

[Mackay]

*collapses from exhaustion from trying to read the 20 or so pages of Intrigue mafia she missed while on holidays*

2 weeks. 20 pages. Still the same day and no nearer to a lynch. Gaaaah!

...although, admittedly, day 2 did end sometime over the weekend. *breathes a big sigh of relief*

[Xeno]

So, we've been doing the "free market" system for quite a while. To the best of my knowledge, this was to eliminate the incredibly long wait period before modding games (wasn't it up to about a year?)

Are we going back to the old system any time soon?

(because i think the availability of so many games has, as others have already said, made replacements more necessary and less available.)

Xeno

[Dragon Phoenix]

I think the main problem is that some players sign up for any game, have to spread their attention too thin, and participation in some games suffer.

Remedy: exert a bit more self-control.

This would result in a real free-market style, where not every sign-up that is started actually results in a game. Players (and we have a rather limited pool of them) would choose themes or mods they like.

Also, mods should (imho) exert a bit more restraint. If you cannot fill your 40 player game within say a week, maybe you should adjust the game to a lower number of players. That way you hopefully get players who are really interested.

[Jason]

I have to say I like the layout of mafiascum alot better. it seems more professional. I would like if there was some sort of icon or something to remind people to check if a post has been made during the time you've been spending typing a new reply. I also think that you should be able to access any one of the pages instead of just the first and last three. I like the post count etc. It gives a feeling of how experienced the players are and how to react to them. It adds another dimension to the games. I think as a site GL seems like a great idea for people who want to mod before nodding a minigame on mafiascum. My friend bobacino did a great invasion mafia game that would have been alot better if the participation was higher. I also like the way in mafia scum you get notifications when a new reply has been added. With GL I ahd to keep checking in the hope that someone might have replied. With mafiascum my emails tell me when to bother looking for replies..

[Dragon Slayer]

Gl isn't bad but I like mafiascum a lot more. Brunchma isn't great- I just don't like the people there al tht much. Except for those of us that also play there.
Born on mafiascum and will probably die on mafiascum. As for the GL, jus some extra fun for me.