Pictographic Writing (Chinese/Japanese etc.) question

[jadesmar]

Does anyone know any pictographic writing styles, where one character can represent a single idea or concept rather than a phoneme?

Specifically I am looking for single symbol representations of the English word "gone", or whatever word come closest to the concept upon translation to an eastern language. I am also looking for as many different symbols as possible.

Thanks.

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Here it is (courtesy of www.babelfish.altavista.com) in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. Korean and Japanese both give two-letter words, however.

.........Korean
...
Chinese....Japanese
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Space for sale. PM i_h8_evil_stuff for details.

[Lucky Wizard]

For the record, Korean is written using an alphabet, so it's not a pictographic language. Some pictographic symbols are used in Korean, but those are Chinese characters and are therefore already covered by Chinese.

Wikipedia has a list of pictographic languages (or, as they refer to it, logographic languages) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems#Logographic_writing_systems .

[Vinny]

The chinese symbol that I_hate_stuff posted are more commonly used as "go".

"wo chiue" ("I Go", statement)

Or "ni chiue ba", ("you go", command)

"ta chiue ne", ("he/she went?", question).

but add the word "ler" (commonly used for "already") after it, then it's "gone".

"wo chiue ler" ("I already went", "I am gone"),

"ta chiue ler" ("he/she is gone").

And now that I think about it, there's no actual single word for "gone" in Chinese, just the word "go" used in different context.

Is that what you pretty much have in mind, Jadesgate?

[Vinny]

addendum:

actually, in chinese, the written languate are always the same.

you write "chieu le" or "chieu ba".

But the spoken language,

the word that IhateSomeStuff posted can actually be spoken differently to mean different things.

you would say "chiue" or "ju" when seeing the same word to indicate you are going, or you're gone (you're already went).

Weird, huh?

[jadesmar]

Thank you very much for your help guys.

Here's the thing, my band is currently designing a graphic that we will be using for posters, it's kind of a stark black and white thing with a tree(with little red birds for colour posters).

It will sort of look like this:


We are also, however, trying to think of a graphic for a run of T-shirts and one of the ideas was a circular chinese calendar thingy with an extra symbol in the middle meaning "gone".

Vinny (et al.), generally speaking, do you think that the "chiue" symbol from reply 1 would be acceptable to those that read Chinese or would we be laughed at for using the wrong verb tense? (You know, the way I laugh at signs in Engrish)

[Legion]

Ha ha ha Jadesgate!!! Ha ha ha.

Do you have to be Chinese to find this funny?

[mole]

You probably don't want Japanese. It'd be something like "itta mono" which is four characters long. And they aren't very interesting characters either. If you wanted to ignore the tense you could go with the first character of ih8's diagram (the bit that isn't the < - looking thing) but I think the Chinese version looks better.

[Huey]

Jadesmar, the closest one character I could think of for you to use would be the word "Loe" ("Liu" in Cantonese) but it's a simple character, not very fancy or elegant:



(eh, i'm sure someone can find a better looking symbol. I googled but gave up so I drew it up ha ha.

It doesn't really mean "gone", but I think it captures what you want to imply.

It's a word in which if you say it right after a verb, it becomes past perfect or imperfect or whatever you call them things.

i.e.

Chzue means = Go
Chzue "loe" = gone

Chzua = eat
Chzue "loe" = eaten

etc.

i.e using it would make an action a thing of the past.

[Huey]

Actually, now that I think about it, there's one character you could use in your graphics that wouldn't make Chinese people go ha ha stupid american for your purpose. That word is "hang" in cantonese. I don't know how to say it in Mandarin. It's a lot fancier and it means "travelled". I don't know how to write it either. Maybe Bambi knows how to write it, ask DP to ask her. Or I can ask my dad.

[jadesmar]

Thanks Huey.

Is this it?

[Huey*]

Hey! Yes! That's the word I had in mind. It means "travelled". I think that character may capture the essence of what you're trying to portray. Good luck dood.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Thanks for the replies guys. It should look pretty slick when I'm finished. One more question: do the symbols on this site fairly represent the other years of the Chinese Zodiac in that pictographic set?

Thanks!

Incedentally, here is the final logo... there were some other suggestions, but I think this captures the feeling best...


...and the accompanying arm artwork for a B/W concert tee...

[Huey]

Nice! Looking good man.

Yeah, the Zodia characters are correct. But they are simplified chinese though. Not sure if you care. I'd think it'd be more appropriate to use the old style Chinese instead of lazyman's chinese, but that's just my opinion.

[Mercuria]

<hits huey>

i agree, but... if you're going to make a suggestion like that, you should at least point him in the right direction, if not give him the set in traditional chinese...

okay, okay... maybe i'm just bitter because i'm illiterate... =(

i can read cardinal directions and elements and random other things, though =D

[Pigboy.]

What the hell does Year of the Gone mean anyway???

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Pigboy: Aww, I bet you even didn't try. It's the "thirteenth" (completely fictional) year of the Chinese Zodiac. "Gone" as a noun has numerous meanings, all of them fairly appropriate for the style of music.

Some of the various connotations:

Gone (n.)
Absent, Alone, Drunk

Year, Gone
passage of time, end of a period of time

from far Gone
Progression, Advancement

as the 13th number in a list of 12
unluckiness

as an animal
extinction

etc.

Huey: Thanks, yes a direction on what to search for would be helpful.

Thanks for the replies.

[Huey*]

Or you could use those on that site, since your graphics are abstractive anyways, it'd fit nicely.

But if you do want to use traditional chinese, I found a site that has 'em:
http://www.greendragonarts.com/zodiac/zodiac.htm#Zodiac%20Signs

Just ignore the 2nd word in all of them, which means "year".

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Awesome! Thank you so much!

[Pigboy]

Aaaah! Now it all makes sense!!

I'd always heard it as 'Year of the Gonk'.
Always thought it would be an unfortunate year to be born.

[jadesmar]

Hey, is there a more classic/non-lazyman way of representing that "hang character"?

BTW: Thanks much for your help, Huey.

And, um.. cheers to my brother the rodent.

[Huey*]

No, the "hang" rodent posted is the only version. It's the same for both.

[jadesmar]

You rock Huey.

[winterHLepsilon]

Hi, this discussion really is interesting. The Chinese Language is one of long history and deep cultural roots. The earliest Chinese characters, inscriptions upon tortoise shells, dated back to 1300 BC. These ancestors of modern Chinese were already beautiful. In the Qin Dynasty (the first Chinese Dynasty of ancient times), the Emperor unified the Chinese language (characters). The font used at that time, Li Shu, is still common today. Does anybody know about Chinese calligraphy? The writing, a form of art, is beautiful and pleasing.

Look at this piece of calligraphy.



Usually a Chinese character does not convey only one meaning. And some characters need to be used together to deliver a meaning. 'hang' and 'le' both have many different meanings (if used alone), and if put together with various other characters, they form word groups and produce more meanings...

English has a phonetic system. Chinese also has a phonetic system, 'pinyin'. The symbols (one set) are like English letters, but they pronounce in a different way and they must be combined according to a set of rules. (For example, 'k' doesn't combine with 'iao'). And there are symbols of tones, which are very important. There's also another kind of unique symbols for the system.

Strokes form Chinese characters. just as English letters form words. Every character is unique and is expressed in a picturesque way. Characters are organized to form words (like English phrases, in a structural context) and words form sentences.

The Chinese language system is a complex one. It may seem difficult to master (which can take years to reach a professional level), yet it's also very charming.

PS: I don't think simplified Chinese is 'lazyman whatsoever'. It's simpler, fresher, more refined, and more efficient. Traditionial Chinese though perhaps pretty to look at is harder for usage (the traditional characters usually have a lot more strokes ) and more time-consuming so now it's a bit out-of-date. Anyway it's suitable for art & design. [/img]
_________________
*HL--^H^e^L^en *
=A girl from Guangzhou, China, Asia=

Ask, and it shall be given you;
Seek, and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[Dragon Phoenix]

[Mercuria]

my knowledge of chinese calligraphy goes as far as how to hold the brush... seeing as i'm (essentially) illiterate =/

but there are scrolls around my house. and i can do the bamboo thing. but nearly anybody can do the bamboo thing ;p

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Li Shu sounds awesome. I'll definitely have a look at that.

Another question springs to mind as I look at the caligraphy winterHLepsilon posted: if I am going to present a set of characters, essentially for the years of the zodiac, what direction should it run?

In english, say I would run a string of characters such as Y-E-A-R-O-F-T-H-E-G-O-N-E and it would run left to right, and proceed on subsequent lines down the page. If I wanted to put this in a vertical line, I would rotate the string 90 degrees counter-clockwise.

If I want the Chinese characters in a similar string, would I rotate them 90 degrees along with the baseline, or would I leave them upright and decending? Such as:
Y
E
A
R

etc.

Hopefully the question makes sense...

[winterHLepsilon]

If you want a vertical set of Chinese characters, you write them upright and descending, right-to-left. In ancient times people write vertically, but now we write horizontally most of the time (on Chinese mainland). Sometimes there are vertically-written books or articles mainly to create good literature effects.
_________________
*HL--^H^e^L^en *
=A girl from Guangzhou, China, Asia=

Ask, and it shall be given you;
Seek, and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[winterHLepsilon]

Actually, in Chinese 'le' doesn't necessarily mean 'already'. We have a word for that. 'yi jing'.

And 'le' can have several differnt meanings! It has two kinds of pronounciation actually, 'le' and 'liao'(falling-rising tone). In Chinese we don't emphasize stress as much as English does but tones are very very important to us.

Turning back to le, and liao3 .

Le:1. used after a verb or an adjective to indicate the comletion of an action or a change. a)used after an action that has taken place or sth. that has changed. b)used for an anticipated or presupposed action.
2. used at the end of a sentence or a pause in the middle of a sentence to indicate a change or a new situation. a)indicating that sth. has happened or is about to happen. b)indicating a certain situation under certain conditions. c)indicating a change in one's understanding, idea, view or action. d)indicating a request or a command.

liao3: 1. finish
2. used in conjunction with 'de' and 'bu' after a verb to express possibility
3. entirely(not)
4. understand, know

So many meanings!
_________________
*HL--^H^e^L^en *
=A girl from Guangzhou, China, Asia=

Ask, and it shall be given you;
Seek, and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[winterHLepsilon]

[Mercuria]

i think he means that the character sets are the same for the different dialects...

[winterHLepsilon]

This is li shu writing style (font).
_________________
*HL--^H^e^L^en *
=A girl from Guangzhou, China, Asia=

Ask, and it shall be given you;
Seek, and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[Vinny*]

[Vinny*]

ooo Nevermind! Just remembered the PROFILE button =)

[winterHLepsilon]

I wonder when jadesmar can finish his design.
_________________
*HL--^H^e^L^en *
=A girl from Guangzhou, China, Asia=

Ask, and it shall be given you;
Seek, and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[jadesmar]

My new computer (Dell) arrives on the 18th of August. It should be finished shortly after that.

[Phil_The_Rodent]

I'd like to have it done by the end of the month, but it will depend on how much time I have and need.