Ask about Islam

[Guest]

[Stuie]

'Good' is not a human characteristic, imnsho. also in my opinion, the fact that all people - possibly all beings with consciousness (that be another debate) - know that good things are good indicates something of a universal nature.
if one is to believe in a God that created us, then one would be inclined to also believe that this God gave us our knowledge of good and evil and, in knowing one to be preferable over the other, that this God wants us to do what is 'good'. that leads me to believe (this is only my opinion, remember) that if there is a God, that He is good, and wants us to be likewise.
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^{"Kicking a kitten... a grown man punting a kitten who was looking the other way... It was the bravest thing I've ever seen." - Torg}

[Samadhi]

[wordcross]

Actually, Muhammad's uncle Abu Talib is historically documented as refusing to become Muslim though he believed it to be truth. So whether or not you accept the Qur'an, there's at least one example
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[extropalopakettle]

[Rudy*]

I know it's beside the point but I would just like to establish the idea that according toIslam we cannot call god good. When you say 'by most definitions' it must exclude Islam. Whether or not 'Good' is a particularly human charactersitic does not really matter. We cannot ascribe to God any characteristics that humans have. We are not able to compare God to humans in any way. As I understand it this is one of the reasons we cannot describe God in any of the ways we can describe people.


I'm pretty sure that is the way of Islam, perhaps wordcross can back me up on this or tell me what I have misunderstood.

[wordcross]

Meh, I'm falling behind again.

Rudy, you're more or less right. We should not attribute to God any human characteristics. However, this doesn't mean we can't call God "Good" and have some expectation of what that means. God is, after all, He who gives us the definition of what is good and what is bad. Another thing you're sort of dancing around is that Islam does not say that Man was made in God's image. That's what explains the whole "We cannot attribute human characteristics to God" because there's no reason to think that we're similar in any way.
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[Guest]

Thanx for clarification. However, It does leave the "God is good" idea quite open to interpretation.

[wordcross]

*bump to remind myself to get back to unanswered questions at some point*
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[DrJones]

It would be great if you could write some info about Dar al-Sulh, Dar al-Harb, and Dar al-Islam. I also want to point that it's the first time I hear about your explanation on "If the mountain doesn't go to Muhammad, Muhammad goes to the mountain", which also I feel has nothing to do with the true meaning of the phrase, which I was told it was that there are many ways to accomplish the same goal.

[wordcross]

http://mediaguidetoislam.sfsu.edu/religion/03e_concepts.htm Explains the basic concepts rather well.

[Samadhi]

So many Muslim countries should be considered "Dar al-Harb" for Christians/Jews/etc?

[wordcross]

not sure what you're asking. If you mean should Jews and Christians view Muslim countries as Dar al-Harb to them, then i couldn't say. Tthat would be defined by the respective religious rulings/outlooks/whatever.

if you're asking something else, please clarify
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[Samadhi]

No. You got it.

Wasn't it Saudi Arabia that arrested some Christians for praying in their own home?

[wordcross]

Possibly. For a country that's supposedly such friends with the U.S., the Saudis have a habit of being stupid. (and they're not the only ones)
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[crazycellist]

Okay, this Shierk thing. I consider myself a Christian, but I've never been quite sure about a lot of the points of theology that are part of the religion today. I believe that Jesus was more than just a prophet (in the sense that prophets work miracles and have messages, but Jesus did all that and died for our sins.) Now, I obviously contrast with Islam in the last bit, but I do in a lot of ways agree with it that the whole Trinity thing is far too worked up. I don't know exactly what Jesus was, but son doesn't rate very high on the list (with the top right now being that he just was God, plain and simple, and Jesus is what people called him because he needed a name other than God). However, it wouldn't bother me too much if he turned out to be a human capable of taking all of our sins on himself, or even some other sort of being.

How does this fit with the concept of Shierk? Am I committing it by believing that God took human form, or am I avoiding it by not believing that God and Jesus had a father/son relationship?

[extropalopakettle]

[Guest]

When did the Sunni and Shi'a split?

[Lucky Wizard]

Just so you know, wordcross announced an absence in VSN.

I'm not Muslim, but I've studied enough history to partially answer the guest's question, so I hope this answer will help until wordcross comes back and can give a better answer.

It was some time after Muhammad died. (about a century, give or take several decades.) There was a dispute about who should be the caliph (Muhammad's successor). IIRC, one side wanted to set rules of succession to decide which of Muhammad's descendants should have the position, while the other side wanted the caliph to be selected by... I dunno, some group. Hence the split.

And oh yeah, some questions of my own for wordy when he gets back.

Now that there's no more caliph, what are the main differences between the two groups?

What role did the caliph play back in the days when there was one? Was it like the Muslim equivalent of the pope? More important than that? Less important than that?

What caused the caliphate to come to an end?

And leaving the topic of the caliph:

Who are the Sufis?

What's the significance of Fridays to Muslims? I know they're somehow significant, but how significant? Are they more or less significant than Sunday is to Christians, or Saturday is to Jews?

[Guest]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Now that word is back...

I'll just start with something easy, I suppose. My question regards the lighter and heavier punishments of the afterlife (or however you guys view it). You said that Muhammad's uncle receives the lightest punishment and everyone else's goes down from there. What I'm struggling with is how the Christian God (though Muslims apparently view them as one and the same) has only two choices: Heaven or Hell. Who is wrong?

I also struggle with this being able to make your way to Heaven "eventually" thing. If you commit all these heinous crimes in the first life and know they are wrong, yet you are given a chance to correct them in the next life, it seems you would do that just to make it to the good place rather than really being repentant. I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to just to give them this chance when they did all that evil on purpose and are just doing the forgiving things so they can enjoy the good life.

I'd also like to know how the world was created and how the Islamic story of Adam and Eve differs from the Christian version.

[extro...]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Good point, extro. I'm not sure it really answers what I want to know though. For example, two kids are fighting and you tell them they have to be together in the same room doing nothing until they say they are sorry. Naturally, they are just going to say they are sorry to one another so they can leave and go on about their business. I would think the same would apply to this making your way to heaven thing. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[wordcross]

*cracks knuckles*

Alrighty, let's give this a go.

How does this fit with the concept of Shierk? Am I committing it by believing that God took human form, or am I avoiding it by not believing that God and Jesus had a father/son relationship?

I'm not really sure if that constitutes Shierk. It depends mostly upon whether Shierk is defined as association of partners/family, or if it is broader and includes things like the belief that Jesus was God in human form. It might be Shierk, but I'm not sufficiently versed in its nuances to know for sure.

When did the Sunni and Shi'a split?
LW was close. There was disagreement almost from the very beginning after of the death of Muhammad. The Sunni wanted Abu Bakr to lead the Muslims as Khalifah (Caliph). The Shi'a wanted Ali to lead, since he had blood ties to Muhammad. Iirc, that was a major contention point between the two groups. They have since gone in different enough directions that some of the belief structure is unrecognizable between denominations. I'll have to do more research to find out what all of the differences are.

Now that there's no more caliph, what are the main differences between the two groups?
same as when there was a Caliph, i reckon. It's just more pronounced without a unifying governing presence. Much like Iraq under Saddam was goverened according to Sunni Islam, despite the Shi'a majority. The Shi'a are still Shi'a, and the Sunni are still Sunni, but now it's out in the open. It is left to be seen what a Shi'a majority in government will mean.

What role did the caliph play back in the days when there was one? Was it like the Muslim equivalent of the pope? More important than that? Less important than that?
Less important than the pope. The Khalifah (Caliph) is like any other human, and nowhere near the level of even a prophet. His every word is not law, nor does he speak with the voice of God or any such thing. His role is to oversee the administration of God's laws, as well as a sort of Interpretation judge. He is chosen either by an enclave of Scholars or by popular vote (though there is some dispute as to the nature of a popular vote). He is chosen based upon his knowledge of Islamic Jurisprudence and his scholarship in Interpretation of the laws, as well as his character as a Muslim. If there is dispute amongst scholars on how to interpret a certain law, the Khalifa may make a decision and overrule the scholars. There is no sin or punishment if he is actually mistaken, as long as he has done his job properly and makes his best effort to find the correct answer. There are examples of two succeeding Khalifas who have each made a different decision concerning a disputed law, and so during the rule of one is was one way, and during the rule of the other it was the opposite way. I'll see if i can find the exact rulings on the situation.

What caused the caliphate to come to an end?
1924 is widely accepted as the end of the Khilafah (Caliphate), due to the actions of Mustafa Kamal, who is branded a traitor to Islam. As a result of The Ottoman Empire siding with the Axis Central powers (thanks Sam) during WWI, they were forced to make concessions after the war and was subsequently divided into multiple independent countries, and thus he Khilafah came to an end. There is a push in some quarters for the re-emergence of Khilafah, though it is still in early stages and the process is long and arduous.

Who are the Sufis?
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Sufism.html
That's a pretty good link to explore if you really want to know about Sufism. A basic definition is that Sufism is the spiritual side of Islam. However, most people who are called Sufi focus so heavily on this spiritual aspect that they neglect the majority of Islam in their intense exploration of their inner beings. It is such an extreme that many Muslims would classify Sufis as being outside Islam, though it is a fine line.

What's the significance of Fridays to Muslims? I know they're somehow significant, but how significant? Are they more or less significant than Sunday is to Christians, or Saturday is to Jews?
About the same significance. Friday includes a special Prayer that replaces the noontime prayer, preceded by a sermon. Men are required to attend the Sermon and prayer, leaving off business or other activities while doing so. Woman are not required to attend unless they wish. There are often community programs scheduled for Fridays because Muslims often choose to have it as a day off, if they can. In Muslim Countries it is usually the day off for most people, sometimes coupled with Saturday as a weekend (though that is cultural and not covered by any Islamic rulings)

I suppose a follow up question is, Previous to the split between Sunni and Shi'a, did they do anything decent beside 'I got you, babe'?
Hah!

My question regards the lighter and heavier punishments of the afterlife (or however you guys view it). You said that Muhammad's uncle receives the lightest punishment and everyone else's goes down from there. What I'm struggling with is how the Christian God (though Muslims apparently view them as one and the same) has only two choices: Heaven or Hell. Who is wrong?
Well, as to who is "wrong" You know i'm gonna say that Islam is more correct But techincally, in Islam it's still just "Heaven and Hell" there just happen to be several levels of each. Iirc, even in Christianity there is a concept of levels. I may, however, be mistaken.

I also struggle with this being able to make your way to Heaven "eventually" thing. If you commit all these heinous crimes in the first life and know they are wrong, yet you are given a chance to correct them in the next life, it seems you would do that just to make it to the good place rather than really being repentant. I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to just to give them this chance when they did all that evil on purpose and are just doing the forgiving things so they can enjoy the good life.
I think you misunderstand the nature of the afterlife and the "eventually" getting to heaven bit. It's not that people can work towards heaven in the afterlife. The deal is this: If you believe, even a little bit, that Islam is the true religion, that God is one, with no partners or family, and that Muhammad is his Messenger and final Prophet, then you will get to Paradise eventually, even if you have to spend some time in hell. It has nothing to do with what you do after you die. After you die, that's it, you get no second chances. Your actions in the afterlife have no bearing on where you go or how soon. When you are judged on judgement day, if you believed in Islam, but your scale of good deeds and bad deeds weighs more heavily on the bad side, you'll be sent to hell for a time equivalent to the extra weight of wrongdoing.

Then, after that time has expired, they will be allowed into the lowest level of heaven (which will still be way way way way way better by millions of times than anything here on earth). I hope that clears things up.

I'd also like to know how the world was created and how the Islamic story of Adam and Eve differs from the Christian version.
The world was created when God said "Be" and it was. It's similar to the Christian version of Creation, with him creating the world and the trees and the water and the people and all that, but unlike Christianity, it says nothing about "On the first day X, On the second day Y" and there is no "God rested on the last day" concept. What reason does God have for rest? If He is all-powerful, there is no necessity for that.
As for Adam and Eve, In Islam they are both created from Clay. Eve is not made from the rib of Adam. Satan convinces them both to eat from the forbidden tree, and there is nothing about him convincing Eve first and her convincing Adam or any of that. They both were tricked, and their shame was revealed. They were cast from paradise onto Earth where they clothed themselves.
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[wordcross]

By the way, Ramadan Mubarak, everyone
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[Samadhi]

pssst, I think you mean 'central powers' not axis.

[Samadhi]

Does Islam believe in Satan? (besides the US I mean)
If yes, what's his story?

[Samadhi]

How do you feel about a recent ban in England covering all work pictures and knick-knacks of novelty pigs and "pig-related items" due to a Muslim workers complaint (this includes a novelty tissue box with Winnie the Pooh and Piglet on the exterior)?

[Guest]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Alright, so reading over this and such, a thought occurred to me while driving home tonight.

Islam is very strict. That's pretty much what I gather. If you don't fully support Islam and believe and follow everything in the Qur'an, then you are going to suffer torment. You will eventually make it to Heaven and the presence of God, but you are going to suffer for your actions first. (In other words, all non-Muslims are going to suffer.) Plus, there is the fact that a person's going to Heaven is based on their actions and theirs alone.

Then I compared this to Christianity. The first obvious difference is that you either go to Heaven or Hell and that is your final place. Another difference is that, in Christianity, you are saved by a mix of Jesus' sacrifice and God's grace. (For the basics.) Finally, it is possible to still go to Heaven even if you don't follow the Christian religion, whereas in Islam, there's no way without suffering torment first.

So, this led me to think about why we receive so much flak. Is it because most Christians take things to an extreme and tell people they have to do all these things and stop sinning, when they themselves are not doing them? Is it that 'holier than thou' hypocritical attitude? I mean, it certainly can't be that our religion is too tough because Islam is apparently tougher. What do you say to all of this?

[wordcross]

Jeez, you make it sound like everyone does time in hell unless they're a saint. That's not what i said, nor was it what i intended to imply. I simply meant to point out that, yes, you *can* spend some time in hell if your actions during your life are just intolerable. But God is very merciful and will forgive you your sins if you ask it and strive to be a better person. In all things, God is just.

And I don't see that Islam is so much tougher than Christianity, necessarily, only that Muslims, especially in the Western society, tend to be more consistently religious when compared to the majority of the nation who identify itself as Christian, but has a wider range of personal beliefs and levels of religiousness or attitude towards it. This is in no way a criticism of Christianity, only pointing out that since there are so many more Christians in a country like America, there is a wide range, while Muslims tend to band together and focus on their Muslim identities.

An example of what I'm trying to say: My mother was born and raised Baptist in Oklahoma. When she was young, dancing was forbidden by the baptist church, at least there in OK. It was based on verses from the bible and other Christian principles. But today, if one were to suggest to an average congregation that dancing is bad, you'd be laughed at. In Islamic communities, however, it is still held that dancing is forbidden, for various reasons, not the least of which is the forbadement of mixing sexes. So while both religions have such a provision, Islam may seem more strict for having stayed with it.

[Omega Centauri]

I skipped a few pages, so sorry if this has been done. I have alot of questions. Please know I did not mean to offend.

Does Islam teach that Mohammed once split the moon and put it back together?

What is Islam's views on evolution and other scientific subjects?

Don't you feel that being able to erase all sins simply by going to Mecca is a bit of a cop out? I mean if Osama bin Laden went to Mecca then died, he would go to heaven.

Yet someone who actually worked to help civilization instead of destroy it (Ghandi) would go to hell?

What gives Islamic countries the right in terms of international law to prohibit other religions from setting up places to worship, or others to worship openly?

Are the animists in Sudan massacred because they aren't of a chosen religion?

What would happen if a Jewish terrorist set off a dirty bomb in Mecca?

Did Mohammed really have relations with an underage girl? It sounded like propaganda to me when I first heard it.

Do Muslims in Europe and North America mind living alongside other religions, including polytheistic ones?

Do they try ever to eliminate the secularization in these countries?

Do you feel they should?

Should the US Constitution be replaced/supplemented with Sharia law?

What about the UN charter?

Do you feel there will ever be peace in the Middle East as long as Israel is around?

A jihad means any holy struggle, not just war. Right?

If I am Muslim, can I jihad against pollution?

What do Muslims think about the following?

gay rights

abortion

stem cell research

death penalty

anti sodomy laws

Muslim prayer in schools?

Non Muslim prayer in schools?

Would you vote for a woman for president?

What about a homosexual?

What about a polytheist?

[wordcross]

Does Islam teach that Mohammed once split the moon and put it back together?
Yes and no. Muhammad was asked once about signs that indicated that the day of judgement was coming. One thing he said was that the day of judgement would not come before the moon split in twain, then came back together. He later showed his companions when this happened, though he was not the one who caused it, God was.

What is Islam's views on evolution and other scientific subjects?
In Islam, similarly to Christianity, it is held that God created Adam and Eve from clay. Most scholars agree that this means that we did *not* come from apes. A few, though, say that being "created from clay" could simply mean that man evolved out of whatever primordial goop began life. Personally, i don't know, though i tend to favour the former.

Concerning the theory of evolution in general, as well as other scientific subjects, Islam does not refute such things as natural selection, as they are proven concepts. And science and Islam are very much in harmony, not at odds. Science is but the method to understand that which God has created, giving it structure and rules to follow.

Don't you feel that being able to erase all sins simply by going to Mecca is a bit of a cop out? I mean if Osama bin Laden went to Mecca then died, he would go to heaven.
Yet someone who actually worked to help civilization instead of destroy it (Ghandi) would go to hell?
Simply "going to Mecca" is oversimplifying the matter, even if by that you mean making the prescribed pilgrimage and following the rituals necessary. In order to have one's sins wiped out, one must A) make the pilgrimage and follow the rituals *sincerely*, B) repent for his sins *sincerely*, C) make every effort not to repeat those sins and mistakes of his life in the past.

It is very doubtful that Osama Bin Laden would repent for actions he does not even view as sin. If he did somehow see the light, well, then we'll see.

It is not an absolute that all non-Muslims go to hell. As i make every effort to point out, one must *reject* Islam as truth, even after it has been explained in the best of the ways, before it is guaranteed that they go to hell. Ghandi, for example, may, after all, end up in heaven. I don't know if he was ever presented with Islam properly, if at all, or what he truly believed in his heart. God will give forgiveness to whom He wills, and will condemn whom He wills, but in all things He is just.

What gives Islamic countries the right in terms of international law to prohibit other religions from setting up places to worship, or others to worship openly?
Not really sure what exactly you mean by this. Within its own borders, an Islamic State has this right simply by virtue of it being their land, therefore it is their right to implement what rules it will.

Outside its borders, an Islamic State has no right to impose such rules on a sovereign nation, and no right to invade or overrule any nation that allows Muslims to live and practice their faith in peace.

Are the animists in Sudan massacred because they aren't of a chosen religion?
I'd have to do more reasearch on this topic. All i know about it is a vague recollection of the fact that it happens. I'll get back to you.

What would happen if a Jewish terrorist set off a dirty bomb in Mecca?
I couldn't say. Such an action would have such far-reaching political ramifications from all quarters of the world that it would be near impossible to make any sort of prediction. Certainly, Muslims the world over would be shocked, angry, probably blindly engraged in many cases, but there is no over-reaching muslim authority in the world that could decide a course of action for all Muslims. Some would probably try and retaliate in kind, but hopefully most would realize the futility of such escalation. I don't know if there would be any serious efforts to change he status of Muslims one way or another, towards unity or away from it, what the Western world would do or be able to do to influence decisions in the Middle-East, or a thousand other variables.

your guess is as good as mine.

Did Mohammed really have relations with an underage girl? It sounded like propaganda to me when I first heard it.
Depends on how you look at "underage." He had many wives, some of them only "girls" by modern standards. In Islam, one is an adult after Puberty and is expected to act the part, including being allowed to marry.
*If* Muhammad had relations, it was entirely consentual, legal, and nothing sick or depraved. I do not, however, know enough about what his relationship with each of his wives was, or with which ones he had relations, to definitively answer your question. I shall see what i can find out, if you like.

Do Muslims in Europe and North America mind living alongside other religions, including polytheistic ones?
Generally speaking, no, they don't mind too terribly much. The biggest problem, i suppose you could call it, is the moral ambiguity that leads to a decay of social standards. religious affiliation aside, morals are going to hell in a handbasket, and fast. Muslims who know better are more concerned with that fact than with the specific religious beliefs of non-Muslims

Do they try ever to eliminate the secularization in these countries?
I don't know, maybe. Probably at least a few.

Do you feel they should?
Not really. It's a waste of time, imo. In places where Islam is so heavily outnumered as a minority, the likelihood of somehow getting Shari'a law implemented is low enough to be nil, and instituting non-Islamic religous laws would be counterproductive.

Should the US Constitution be replaced/supplemented with Sharia law?
Supplemented isn't good enough. Replaced would be nice, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that such a thing will happen. the US wouldn't give up its constitution until it was utterly defeated, in which case it would likely cease to be the US at all and so the question is kinda moot in that case

What about the UN charter?
There'd be no reason to. The idea of having a UN is foreign to Islamic thought. If someone wanted to follow Shari'a law, they might as well become part of the Islamic State. If they didn't want to follow all of it, that's their choice, but either you accept all of Islam, or you might as well follow none of it. There is no compromise.

Do you feel there will ever be peace in the Middle East as long as Israel is around?
No.

A jihad means any holy struggle, not just war. Right?
Literally, it just means "struggle." It has connotations of holy reasons, but it's not a requirement.

If I am Muslim, can I jihad against pollution?
sure, i guess. I don't know what you think that means, but i suppose you could call a struggle against pollution a jihad of sorts.

What do Muslims think about the following?

gay rights
No such thing.

abortion
The only time such a thing is even contemplated is when it's a matter of life or death. If there are complications, and it's either the mother or the child that will live, the mother has the right to choose. Otherwise, Abortion is not allowed.

stem cell research
Depends. Most scholars would probably say no, but with advances now that allow such research without actually using zygotes/fetuses, it becomes much more of a gray-area. you'd have to ask someone who has extensive knowledge of both Shari'a law and Stem-Cell research. Such a person is unlikely to exist right now, so getting a real answer is unlikely.

death penalty
There are circumstances and crimes in Islam for which the death penalty is the prescribed punishment. Murder and Rape are among them.

anti sodomy laws
um, i thought something like this would be obvious. Say yes to anti-sodomy.

Muslim prayer in schools?
In Western society or the Middle-East/Asia? In the Muslim Countries, obviously, prayer is an established part of the daily routine, in school, work, and otherwise.
In Western society, in public schools, Muslims likely expect that their children would be allowed to pray when they need to, even if it's in private somewhere out of the way. I went to public school and was always allowed to pray when it was necessary, though i usually had to make arrangements with a teacher to use their classroom during a free period or something.
There's an Islamic Private School here in Raleigh, next to the Mosque. The kids there all pray when the time comes, usually in the Mosque itself.

Non Muslim prayer in schools?
In an Islamic State, if it was done in private, then it should be allowed, but there wouldn't be any provisions deliberately made for it. There aren't many other religions that require such extensive adherence to ritual and timing that they'd have to pray overtly during school anyway.
In the West, well, If Muslims are allowed to pray in schools, there's no reason to object to giving others that right.

Would you vote for a woman for President?
If she was qualified. But then, most of the men who run for president anymore aren't really qualified.

What about a homosexual?
Probably not.

What about a polytheist?
Dunno. If it even came up, it might make me think twice. But in a secular nation such as the US, religious persuasion is less of an issue than their views on public and international policy.

I think maybe i'd have difficulty voting for an atheist, especially if they were vocal about it.
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[Samadhi]

[Samadhi]

BTW...I perceive you as a moderate to liberal muslim, and I am VERY spooked by the fact that you think there can be no peace with Israel, and that the Constitution should be overruled by Islamic law.

[Blighty Chap]

If the entire Middle East banded together to form one large Muslim state, then declaired war on the USA, who's side would you take?

[Jedo]

If the GL banded together and was neutral of either the USA or the Muslims, what would you do?

[Omega Centauri]

What exactly do you mean by "no such thing as gay rights?"

For everything, or just marriage? Can a gay Muslim still worship in a mosque?

Also, if someone in a Muslim country but who is not Muslim dances in public, what do you do with him?

[Samadhi]

IIRC you can be gay, as long as you don't act on it.

[Omega Centauri]

So they should hide and be ashamed of who they are?