Omaha High-Low 8 or Better Course

[Dr. Borodog]

Greetings fellow students of the sublime game of poker. In this thread, we will cover the basics of winning Omaha High-Low 8 or Better, a flop form of poker similar to (but vastly different from) Texas Hold'em. The genesis of this thread is not to be taken to imply that the Texas Hold'em thread is dead; indeed it is not. There is still great information that I may choose to cover in that thread, and as always questions and discussion are encouraged.

Why Play OHL8?

You may ask, why play OHL8? I'll tell you. Your opponents will play it badly, especially at lower limits. This is even more true of OHL8 than hold'em, and it's true enough of hold'em! Because each OHL8 hand starts with 4 hole cards instead of just two, and you can vie for each end of the pot (we'll cover these in a moment if you've never played), most players see endless possibilities in their starting hands. I've found in my home game that good, smart, tight, aggressive hold'em players turn into loose, passive calling stations before the flop in OHL8!

You of course, will not do this.

How to Play

OHL8 is played exactly like Hold'em, with the following exceptions:

- Each player starts with 4 down cards, rather than just two.
- The pot is split, with the high hand taking half, and the low hand (if one qualifies) taking half.
- To form his hand each player uses the TWO hole cards and THREE table cards that make his best 5 card poker hand (for either high or low). This is a critical difference from hold'em, and I will bold it for emphasis: TO FORM YOUR HAND IN OHL8 YOU MUST USE EXACTLY TWO HOLE CARDS AND EXACTLY THREE TABLE CARDS! There. Can't get more emphatic than that. In hold'em, you can use one or both of your hole cards, or neither, if you can't beat the board you are playing it. This is NOT the case in OHL8!
- Your high hand and low hand are independent; either one can use any two of your hole cards and any three of the table cards.
- Straights and flushes do not count against the low, and the lowest card for a low hand is an Ace. The best possible low hand is A2345 (this is also a straight for high, obviously).
- The "8 or better" means that your hand must be no higher than an 8 high to qualify for low; no pairs, no 9s or higher.
- The previous implies there must be 3 non-duplicated cards 8 or lower on the board for there to be a possible low.
- The "nut low" for any given board is the 2 lowest wheel cards (A-5) not on the board. The nut low for a board of AQ3K5 is 24. If there are 4 wheel cards on the board, the nut low is the 5th wheel card plus any other wheel card (remember you must use two from your hole cards!). If there is a wheel on the board, anyone holding any two wheel cards has the nut low.

Practice

What's the nut low and high for the following ten boards? How about 2nd & 3rd nuts?

1. Kh 6c 9c 9h 4d
2. 2s 5h Ts 5s Ac
3. 2d 9s 3c Kc 5d
4. Th 4s Ah Td 3s
5. 7h 2c 4h 3h Kd
6. Ks 7c Jc Js 9d
7. Qd 8s Jd 7s 8h
8. 6h Qc Tc Qs 6d
9. 2h 4c 3d Ad 5c
10. Qh 8d 6s Jh 8c

(These all came off the deck exactly as you see them, even number 9!)

Adjusting to the strength of winning high hands

The first thing you will notice when you sit down to play OHL8 with a good number of people at the table (5+) is the strength of winning hands. Over and over again you will see newcomers getting destroyed calling to the river with two pair, thinking, "I've got two pair!" Here's the cold hard truth: Two pair in OHL8 AIN'T DICK.

Think about it like this. For any random board of 5 cards, it is unusual for the nuts (the best possible two cards for high) to make less than a straight. At a full table (say ten handed) there are 40 cards from the deck in people's hands. The chance that someone is holding the nuts, or if not, something very close, is extremely high. This chance goes down with the number of people playing. If there are only 5, you usually don't need the nuts to win, but you definitely need a powerfull hand.

In OHL8, straight, flushes, boats, and others (single pairs, two pair, trips, quads, and straight flushes combined) each win about one quarter of the time at a full table. Think about that. For high, trips, straights, flushes, boats, quads, and straight flushes win almost 90% of the time at a full table. Calling with two pair is SUICIDE. DO NOT DO IT.

The same is true for low. The more people there are at the table, the more likely that one (or more) of them is holding the nut low. When you get down to 5, most lows are not won by the nuts, but it's still near them.

There seems to be a real phase change in the game at about 7 players. Over 7 and you really need to show down the nuts. Under 7 and you can have some confidence in near, but non, nut hands.

OHL8 Starting Hands

So what does all this imply? In OHL8, you want to play only hands that can flop the nuts, or flop draws to them.

You see, while your opponents will see all sorts of possibilities in their starting hands, in most of yours you will see possibilities as well: the possibility to make second best hands that will cost you a ton of money when they lose to the nuts.

OHL8 is exactly like Texas Hold'em in the following sense: Most hands will lose (both ends of the pot) and should be folded before the flop.

OHL8 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Texas Hold'em in the following sense: In Texas Hold'em, there is an entire range of values for different starting hands, all the way from superstars like AA to hands like suited connectors to the outright trash like T4o. THIS IS NOT TRUE IN OMAHA. There are trash hands, and there are good hands. There are no superstars, and there is precious little middle ground. Think of it like this: All playable hands in OHL8 are essentially drawing hands. This does not imply that one hand will not be a favorite over another, or even the whole table. It just means that a OHL8 hand must hit the flop. AA doesn't need to in hold'em. It just needs it not to hit anyone else too hard. In OHL8, you can pretty much guarantee that if it missed you, it hit someone else.

So what does this mean in terms of starting hands? I'm going to give you the list that I use in my home game. Then I'm going to tell you the nature of my home game, and what adjustments you'd have to make for different types of games.

Mike's OHL8 Home Game List (5-6 handed, loose-passive table)
- A2xx
- A3xx
- AXs (i.e. any suited ace)
- Any 3 to a wheel (e.g. 345x would qualify)
- Pairs ten and up
- Any 4 cards ten and higher
- Any 4 in a row
- other hands in position with multiple features

By "in position" I mean acting last. By "features" I mean that if an OHL8 does not have nut potential, it must be highly coordinated, i.e. have lots of ways to hit the flop pretty good. for example, a hand like 9923 double suited doesn't make the above list, but it has lots of ways to hit a flop pretty good.

Features can include:
- 2 wheel cards, the lower the better.
- pairs, the higher the better.
- a suit (having 2 cards of the same suit, and thus the potential to make a flush, the higher the high card the better). Being double suited is better still.
- 3 in a row, the higher the better.

To qualify as coordinated, you must have AT LEAST 2 of these features (or better; you can have features and still have a hand that qualifies on the nut potential list, which is great). The reason that you want to play coordinated hands is that you will have more outs to hit the flop than your opponents playing random trash. OHL8 is all about the outs.

OK. Why the hands on the nut potential list? Let's go through the logic.

"Naked" A2 and A3: You can play these with the understanding that they can only take half the pot usually, unless you make a miracle wheel out of them. As the game gets larger, you should throw these away from early position.

Axs - Any suited ace. Obviously the nut potential here is to flop the nut flush or nut flush draw. There is a problem with this, however. You will only flop a flush draw 11% of the time. And then you will only complete your flush roughly 1/3 of the time. 60% of the time, you will win only half the pot (losing the other half to the low). And some of the time the board will pair and litterally flush your flush, as your half of the pot sails away on someone else's boat!

What is the moral to this story? Don't play AXs? No. You just would like to play AXs with other features, for example, a wheel card or two with a suited Ace is a GIGANTIC advantage, as you can now scoop the pot. Also, when your flush takes the high and no low qualifies, there will be a TON of dead money in the pot from people chasing with low starters and draws. Because people chase so long, the implied odds can be gigantic on a scooped or high-only pot. Just call a single bet and if your flop doesn't come, throw it away. As the game gets smaller, (less than 5 people taking the flop) the odds (even implied) simply aren't there to play AXs without other features.

- Any three to a wheel. This is a good starting hand given the circumstances. In a 5 handed game, the nuts usually don't win, but near the nuts almost always do. Obviously, the best low starting hands are of the form A23x or A234, since you have "backup" if one of your low cards is "duped" or "counterfeited" by the board. This happens ALOT. SO the more backup low cards you have, the beter. A naked A2 is very fragile; it can be busted by an A or 2 hitting the board (which will happen 1/3 of the time on the flop alone), but an A23 is very robust; it can only be busted by being duped twice (which only happens once out of every 25 flops).

Even 345x is pretty good unless the table is more than 6 handed. If an ace flops, it may have just busted someone's A2 or A3, giving you the best low at the table.

Obviously other features improve this. What's the best starting hand in OHL8, you ask? It's this:

AA23 double suited. You have a pair of Aces, the nut low draw with backup, and TWO nut flush draws! Even this hand is not in the class of AA in hold'em, though. It's about a 3:2 favorite over other reasonable OHL8 starting hands. Again, they're all drawing hands.

- Pairs ten and up: Trips flop ALOT in OHL8; about a third of all starting hands have a pair in them. The flop contains three cards. Obviously, when you flop a set, you want it to be the TOP set. Hence you only want to go out of your way to play big pairs. Even when you flop a set, though, it is best to consider it a drawing hand to a full house (ala the flush draw), since the board will likely make at least a straight.

Big pairs suffer the same deficiencies as AXs. They must hit the flop, may take only half, and can still lose. Hence if there are too few people seeing the flop (less than 5) the implied odds just aren't there to play them without other features. Obviously, other features improve these hands a lot.

- Any 4 cards ten and above. 40% of the time there will be no low. Since the high-only cards are relatively close together (9TJQK), any 4 high cards have a pretty good shot of fitting well with a no-low board. In these situations there will be a lot of dead money in the pot from the low chasers, and you will win ALL of it. Never forget that these hands are drawing hands; I know 1 player in particular who raises pre-flop with these hands, and chases out the people who are laying him odds, and narrows it down to the good low hands, which he is a big underdog too (he is tricked though, because when it works he wins a big pot; it's just not big enough to justify all the times he loses half the pot to the low or loses outright).

Again, the more features the better. JQKK double suited is better than TJKA with no suits.

- Any 4 in a row: These hands have the potential to flop straight draws with many outs. In OHL8, it's all about the outs. You can flop a straight draw with over 20 outs! Making you a favorite to make a straight by the river.

BEWARE! Straights are VERY fragile in OHL8! You can flop the nut straight, and be in a situation where ANY CARD IN THE DECK can make you a loser. Recall that straights only win 1/4 of the time. If there are 3 of a suit on the board you can virtually guarantee someone has a flush if the table is of any size. If the board pairs and someone is sitting on trips, you're screwed.

The moral of the story is that more features are better. 4 in a row double suited is good, so you'll have draws to flushes of your own. Also, when you flop a straight or straight draw with these hands, you will also many times flop 2 pair, and have outs to a boat of your own (although not many). If you flop trips by matching a pair on the board, you have the same number of outs to boat up as if you'd flopped a set (although since you're trips may be low you might lose to a bigger boat).

The moral is to play highly coordinated cards, the more features the better, with nut potential. Hit your flop hard, or GET OUT.

The list above covers about 30-40% of all starting hands, which is what I play outside of the blinds in a loose passive 5-6 handed table.

Excercise

Take out a deck of cards, deal out 13 4 card starting hands, and explain why you would or would not play them.



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You will respect my philosophai.

[Dr. Borodog]

Note, if you try to play some OHL8 online (and I encourage you to do so) you may find very different game conditions from those I describe. For example, you may be playing 9 or 10 handed, in which case you can play all of the nut potential hands if the table is loose and passive, because you'll be getting good odds to flop well. But if there is a lot of raising, you must tighten up significantly, particularly up front. This means that you can really only play A2 + backup type hands in early position. Play about 10% of hands up front, and play about 40% (the ones I listed) on the button when there are lots of callers in front of you.

Raising Before the Flop in OHL8

There are a lot of reasons to raise before the flop in hold'em, like narrowing the field, getting more money in when you're the favorite, buying the button, etc. You must understand that raising before the flop in OHL8 is a spotty proposition that will likely do little but raise your variance. This is because, again, all OHL8 starting hands are drawing hands; essentially they're all like suited connectors in hold'em. You generally do not want to raise with suited sonnectors in hold'em because it destroys your implied odds, which you'd like to keep high (i.e. have as small an investment as possible and try to see a big flop before the bets get large and you can make a lot of money when you hit right, or fold cheap when you miss).

Nevertheless, the are times in hold'em when you want to raise with suited connectors. If there are a lot of people in, particularly if they play trashy hands, your suited connectors will not only pay off when they hit a flop, they will actually win more than their fair share of the time. Hence you are a favorite preflop, and it always pays to get more money in. The same can apply to OHL8. If there are already many people in, and you have a premium starting hand (the shining example of which is AA23 double suited), you should raise, particularly if people usually take the flop with any 4 cards. Generally, if I'm in late position, I will raise with any A2+backup low hand. I'll go into deeper details of why later on.

What you do NOT want to do, is raise with a premium hand in EARLY position! NEVER, EVER, EVER do this! You will see idiots do it all the time. It is WRONG. What is wrong with it? As I said, there simply are no hands that you want to limit the field with in OHL8 They are ALL drawing hands, for which you want the best odds possible, meaning the most opponents. If you raise with a premium hand in early position, and force people to fold inferior hands that would've paid you money, what have you gained? This is VERY different from hold'em. In hold'em, a big hand like AA needs to limit the field to up it's chance of winning. AA23 does not play much better against 4 opponents than it does versus 9. You are only costing yourself money when your hand does hit by forcing out those people before they put their money in.

Never raise pre-flop from early position with a premium hand if it will force people out!

On the other hand, if the game is so loose that many people will call a raise anyway, then by all means raise! Get that money in.

The only other thing that raising is good for in OHL8 is buying the button. If you are 1 off the button and you know that the player on the button is overly tight, you can raise with any hand you were going to play anyway. Recall that by the time the action gets to you, there are probably plenty of callers, and that any hand you're going to play (that has nut potential) will likely win more than fair share against many loose callers, and that acting last on all subsequent betting rounds is a big advantage. Your raise will not hurt your odds and may buy you the button. Be warned: This play will increase your variance. I still generally only try to buy the button when I have a good low with backup anyway. Also, never raise with an all-high hand (regardless of position); this hand needs implied odds, as it is an underdog to low hands.

Here's another reason why you want to raise when you have premium low hands and many people are in, and NOT when few people have yet to call:

Getting Quartered (or worse)

Getting quartered in OHL8 happens when you tie for one end of the pot. If the nut low is A3, and two players show A3, they have quartered each other. What does this mean? It means that if you've put 1/4 of the money in, you've broke even. If you put MORE than 1/4 in, you won the hand, but lost money on the deal!

This is why it is TERRIBLY important to make sure there are lots of callers in before raising your premium low hands. You want to raise when your money is less than 1/4 of the money going in. If you raise in early position, who will call and who will raise? The weak lows (who should be paying you) will fold, and the other A2 will call. Thus you narrow the pot to you and the people most likely to quarter you. DO NOT DO THIS. When you have a premium low starting hand, make sure that there are plenty of people in before you raise.

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You will respect my philosophai.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 05-04-2004 12:08 PM).]

[Highest Prime]

Two words about all of this so far: Holy s**t.

I'm beginning to understand the genesis of this quote:

Originally posted by Boro:

---

Wow. Every hand of this game is like a Mensa test.

---

Having said that, I'm all ears. I'd love to get good at a game where an AKs equivalent in my hand doesn't get cracked by calling-station morons quite so often. And, after all, if I wanted to have fun with people who were better at something than I am, I'd take them out on a golf course.

H'

[casinopete]

Practice

1. Kh 6c 9c 9h 4d
High: 1st: 99xx or KK9x; 2nd: KKxx or K9xx; 3rd: 96xx
Low: N/A
2. 2s 5h Ts 5s Ac
High: 1st: 55xx or AA5x; 2nd: AATx; 3rd: TT5x or A5xx
Low: 1st: 43xx; 2nd: 63xx; 3rd: 64xx
3. 2d 9s 3c Kc 5d
High: 1st: 64xx; 2nd: A4xx; 3rd: KKxx
Low: 1st: A4xx; 2nd: A6xx; 3rd: 64xx
4. Th 4s Ah Td 3s
High: 1st: TTxx or AATx; 2nd: AAxx or ATxx; 3rd: T4xx
Low: 1st: 52xx; 2nd: 62xx; 3rd: 65xx
5. 7h 2c 4h 3h Kd
High: 1st: {6h}{5h}xx; 2nd: {Ah}{xh}xx; 3rd: {Kh}{xh}xx
Low: 1st: A5xx; 2nd: 6Axx: 3rd: 65xx
6. Ks 7c Jc Js 9d
High: 1st: JJxx or KKJx; 2nd: KKxx or KJxx; 3rd: J9xx
Low: N/A
7. Qd 8s Jd 7s 8h
High: 1st: 88xx or QQ8x; 2nd: QQJx; 3rd: JJ8x or Q8xx
Low: N/A
8. 6h Qc Tc Qs 6d
High: 1st: QQxx or Q66x; 2nd: 66xx or QTxx or Q6xx; 3rd: TT6x
Low: N/A
9. 2h 4c 3d Ad 5c
High: 1st: 76xx; 2nd: 6{2-5}xx; 3rd: N/A (any)
Low: 1st: {{Any two to the wheel}}xx; 2nd: 6{A-4}xx; 3rd: 65xx
10. Qh 8d 6s Jh 8c
High: 1st: 88xx or QQ8x; 2nd: QQJx; 3rd: JJ8x or Q8xx
Low: N/A

[edit]overlooked something on the pairs w/2 overs showing[/edit]

[This message has been edited by casinopete (edited 05-04-2004 04:14 PM).]

[Dr. Borodog]

Understanding Post-Flop Play in OHL8

Many people think that OHL8 is a game of "rivers." They see many hands being won and lost on the river by seeming "miracle cards." They think there is more luck involved in OHL8 than there is in Texas Hold'e,. The exact opposite is true.

Think about this. Before the flop in hold'em you have only 2/7 of your final hand. After the flop you have 5/7. This makes these two points the defining moments in a hold'em hand. At these two points, some hands are clearly ahead of others. Some hands have correct odds to continue, others do not. The luck in hold'em is confined to the last two cards (sure, there is luck in determining if you hit the flop, but if you don't, you just get out). Hence the term "getting rivered."

Omaha is exactly the same way, except that you start with ALMOST HALF of your eventual cards, and by the flop you have 7/9 of you eventual hand. Only 2/9 of your hand remains to come, compared with 2/7 in hold'em. This means that luck plays LESS of a factor in OHL8 than hold'em. What does this mean for a skilled OHL8 player? He can do better than a good hold'em player in the same sized game at the same stakes versus the same quality of opposition. This is why you should play OHL8. Many people mistakenly believe that because the pot is usually split that you'll do worse. This is a myth. You'll be winning both the high and low your fair share, and the two ends of the pot to chase build bigger pots (more action).

There is a phenomenon in hold'em called "schooling" that occurs in loose games, where a table full of loose callers unintentionally "colludes" against the front runner. How do they do this? Well, a good hold'em hand on the flop (unless you flopped a monster) usually has few outs to improve. Top pair + top kicker only has 5 outs to improve (if you have no other draws), and then only to 2 pair or trips. The many loose callers chasing backdoor flushes and inside straights, or even just bottom pair, all have some small number of outs to beat you, maybe as few as 2 each. But when there are 6 of them in the hand against you, that can make half the deck beat you, while you've still only got your 5 outs. This is why your hand that is best on the flop loses so often in low limit hold'em, schooling. The same is NOT usually true of Omaha. Let's see why.

Recall that all hands are drawing hands before the flop in Omaha. Well, unless you get very lucky, the same is true after the flop in Omaha. In other words, it is very rare to flop a "made hand" in OHL8. You will almost certainly flop a draw that has some number of outs to be the nuts or near it (if you're playing the right starters).

The reason that schooling doesn't affect OHL8 hands the way they do hold'em hands is that all of the hands are drawing (usually). The hand that has the most outs will get the money in the long run, regardless of any individual hand. This is why you play coordinated cards; it gives you the best chance to hit the flop, and hit it with more outs than anyone else. And if you flop just right, most of the table (if not all of them) can be drawing dead to your hand, meaning they are just giving their money to you.

It is possible to flop hands in OHL8 that have thirty outs to the nuts or 2nd nuts. If you play many featured cards you can flop trips, a low draw, a straight draw, and a flush draw all at the same time. The number of outs against you does not diminish your outs. You definitely want to watch out for drawing dead though. Your straight outs are useless if 3 flush cards and a pair are showing on the board.

Always remember that hands with few outs are fragile, and can be rivered. Hence two pair (only 4 outs to boat up). A straight with no redraws (no flush or boat potential). Also, when you flop a set, the more people there are at the table, the more you have to treat it like a drawing hand rather than a made hand.

So the moral of the story: outs, outs, outs, outs, outs.

[edit to fix italics]


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You will respect my philosophai.

[This message has been edited by mith (edited 05-04-2004 08:19 PM).]

[Dr. Borodog]

Thanks mith.



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You will respect my philosophai.

[Dr. Borodog]

Understanding Pot Odds in OHL8

The one thing you really need to be careful to understand when playing OHL8 is what happens to your pot odds because the pot is usually split. If you are drawing to a hand that will most likely take only half the pot, you must diminish your pot odds by half when deciding whether or not to continue (this is true of all split pot poker forms).

Notice also that you must take into account what is on the board, and what affect your outs will have on it. If there are 2 low cards on the board with one card to come, but you are drawing to a straight that will be made by a high card, then if you make your hand the pot will not be split. You can use the entire pot in figuring your odds. But if you are drawing to a flush in the same situation (and you have no possible low), then many of your winning outs will also make a low on the board, costing you half the pot. You must take this into account, although exact calculations can be tricky, to say the least.

The good news is because people chase so much in this game, and if you play good hands you'll have so many outs, that you generally have the odds to chase good draws like high flushes, low lows, etc.




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You will respect my philosophai.

[Dr. Borodog]

HP, will you take a stab at the exercise? The one with the 13 starting hands?


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You will respect my philosophai.

[Highest Prime]

Umm. You called?

Sorry about my absence; I was out of the country on business for most of last week and have spent the few hours I haven't been jet-lagged since returning in bed sick.

So. Find the nut hands for the ten dealt boards, hmm? Lemme see. I'll use "x" to represent a blank, "Xh" to represent any heart (for instance).

1. Kh 6c 9c 9h 4d
H1. 9d 9s - K-K is 2nd nuts. Any 9-K makes 1st nuts impossible but may lose to K-K.
L1. None possible

2. 2s 5h Ts 5s Ac
H2. 5d 5c - A-A is 2nd nuts. Any 5-A makes 1st nuts impossible but may lose to A-A. As Xs makes the highest flush, but can be beaten by 5-A, 5-T, or 5-2
L2. 3-4; 2nd nut is 3-6

3. 2d 9s 3c Kc 5d
H3. 6-4 for the nut straight; see L3 for 2nd nuts
L3. A-4 - if no one holds 6-4, this will sweep the pot

4. Th 4s Ah Td 3s
H4. Tc Ts - T-A is vulnerable to A-A which forms a better hand (aces full vs. 10s full) but the A-A may lose to the Tc Ts.
L4. 2-5; 2nd nut low is 2-6

5. 7h 2c 4h 3h Kd
H5. 5h 6h for the straight flush; Ah 5h or Ah 6h is also the nuts; while Ah Xh is 2nd nuts.
L5. A-5; 2nd nut low is A-6 followed by 5-6.

6. Ks 7c Jc Js 9d
H6. Jd Jh; again, K-K is 2nd nuts but J-K prevents top nuts but can lose to K-K.
L6. None possible

7. Qd 8s Jd 7s 8h
H7. 8c 8d; Q-Q is 2nd nuts. 8-Q can prevent 8-8 but not Q-Q.
L7. None possible

8. 6h Qc Tc Qs 6d
H8. Qd Qh is nuts; 6c 6s is 2nd nuts and may lose a whole bunch of chips! Any Q-6 is also the nuts (or tied for nuts).
L8. None possible

9. 2h 4c 3d Ad 5c
H9. Any 7-6 for the nut straight; 6-5 is 2nd nuts
L9. Any two different paired board cards gives the nut low. A-2 ties with A-5 ties with 3-4 and so on.

10. Qh 8d 6s Jh 8c
H10. 8h 8s; 2nd nuts is Q-Q, 3rd is J-J.
L10. None possible

How'd I do?

H'

(Oops! Edited to correct the paired boards; an 8-Q is not tied for the nuts in #10 for example, since it can lose to Q-Q. In a general sense, you would need two of the highest unpaired board card in the hole to be sure that your full house involving the paired board card was good. I think I said that right.)



[This message has been edited by Highest Prime (edited 05-11-2004 10:42 AM).]

[Dr. Borodog]

Actually, that wasn't the exercise I meant.

I meant the one with dealing out 13 random starting hands a stating why you would or would not play each one.

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You will respect my philosophai.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 05-11-2004 04:42 PM).]

[mith]

~bump~

[Dr. Borodog]

Yes?



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You will respect my philosophai.

[mith]

Just wondering if there was any more.

[Samadhi]

Guess not.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.