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THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: 1

THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: 2

borschevsky
Chessnut

 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: 3 For the first one, I think 1. Ba7+ and 2. b6 followed by putting the white king on h1 should do it.
THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:45 pm    Post subject: 4

 borschevsky wrote: For the first one, I think 1. Ba7+ and 2. b6 followed by putting the white king on h1 should do it.

After 1...Kc7, can the White king reach h1?

.
borschevsky
Chessnut

 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: 5 Not right away, but then white will place his K on f1 and B on b8, like: 1.Ba7+ Kc7 2. b6+ Kd8 3.Kc1 Bxg4 4.Kd1 Ke7 5.Ke1 Rg8 6.Kf1 Be6 7.Bb8. If black takes the B, then the K gets to h1; if not, white just plays the B along f4-c7 and black can't make progress.
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: 6 #2: partial solution, I think 1. Nb5, threatening Pa8+ if black moves the Queen off the 8th rank. Black cannot put white in check (except for 1. ... Qd4+, for which white would respond NxQ). So, if black does not move the queen from the 8th rank, 2. Kxp, and so on. There are a lot of possibilities to consider at that point.
Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot

 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:59 pm    Post subject: 7 I toyed with that and discarded it. Here's why: 1. It's the obvious move. These things are never the obvious move. 2. As black, below is my response. I think we can agree that if I ever get your passed pawn with my queen intact, I will win. 1. Nb5 Kb6 2. Kxe2 Qc8 3. if N moves, Qa8, then 4. Nb5, Qb7 3. if K moves, Qb7 4. K moves, Be7 5. K moves, Bd8 6. K moves, Bc7 7. if NxB, Qxa7 7. if K moves, Bb8 8. whatever happens, I've got the pawn and still have my queen.
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:42 pm    Post subject: 8 Actually, #1 was the obvious move, so this one might be too. I'll take a look at your logic....
borschevsky
Chessnut

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:53 am    Post subject: 9 Yeah, I don't see any way to draw for white. Black can play Bd6-c7-b6 and Kb7 to take the a7 pawn, and then just attack with the queen.
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: 10 Well, if not 1. Nb5, black can seemingly force 2. Nb5 with 1 ... Kb7. As I see it, there are three main possibilities. 1. White sacrifices the knight and the pawn at a7, and then "hides" the king at h3 or d3 and somehow forces a stalemate. For example, if the white king was at h3 and black moved the Queen to d2, we would have a stalemate. But, I don't see any way to make this work. 2. White promotes the pawn and puts black in perpetual check. Again, I don't see any way to make this work. 3. White effectively pins the black queen on the eighth rank by threatening Pa8. Zag's post is compelling, though, and I don't see a way around that. Any other possibilities?
borschevsky
Chessnut

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: 11 couple more possibilities: - white trades his knight for the black queen somehow (I don't see how) - white sets up some kind of entry blockade. For ex, put the knight on c2 and the king on e2; there's no way for the black queen to enter on the d file. But it doesn't matter, the queen can enter on the h file, or black can just wait and white has to move the N or K.
THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: 12

 Quote: - white sets up some kind of entry blockade. For ex, put the knight on c2 and the king on e2; there's no way for the black queen to enter on the d file. But it doesn't matter, the queen can enter on the h file, or black can just wait and white has to move the N or K.

You are on the right track, borschevsky.

.
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: 13 Yeah. I usually suck hardcore at chess, but I think I can get #2. The king takes the pawn at e2 and sits there. Now black must take the pawn at a7 before it promotes. Also, it has to open up white's defense by killing a pawn at b3 or f3, the only unprotected pawns. In the meanwhile, white's knight moves to b1 and then to d2, protecting both pawns at b3 and f3. With the knight at d2, white's king can 'circle' around that knight, protecting it from being taken and leaving the game in an unwinnable state for both sides. I think that's it. I'm sure someone can make this more rigorous than I.... Pfft... -k
Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject: 14

THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
 Quote: - white sets up some kind of entry blockade. For ex, put the knight on c2 and the king on e2; there's no way for the black queen to enter on the d file. But it doesn't matter, the queen can enter on the h file, or black can just wait and white has to move the N or K.

You are on the right track, borschevsky.

Really? Wow! With the two columns for the Queen to enter, I had given up on that approach early, in favor of the "engineer a knight for queen trade" approach. Anyway, the only sort of blockade I can think of would involve something along the lines of the king on e1 and the knight on f2. But then the black queen can still move to h2, and from there to g2 and f1.

 Now I see knightshade's simulpost. Dang it! I stopped on the assumption that we had to keep black's queen out of our zone, and totally missed the answer. Well done, knightshade, and nice puzzles THUD. [/edit]
borschevsky
Chessnut

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: 15 Yep, I think knightshade's idea works: 1. a8Q+ Qxa8 2. Nb1 Qd8 3. Kxe2 and 4. Nd2 is a draw.
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject: 16 Nicely done, knightshade.
THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: 17

White has got himself into another fine mess.
How did he escape this time?

Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: 18 A few thoughts.... White can draw by 1) ... getting the knight to h2 or d2 before black promotes. 2) ... safely promoting a pawn of his own 3) ... capturing black's knight and h7 pawn without losing the knight or bishop (as I recall, bishop-knight vs. queen is a draw, right?) 4) ... putting black in perpetual check #4 seems highly unlikely, but so do the others...
THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:32 am    Post subject: 19

 Laramie wrote: White can draw by 1) ... getting the knight to h2 or d2 before black promotes. 2) ... safely promoting a pawn of his own 3) ... capturing black's knight and h7 pawn without losing the knight or bishop (as I recall, bishop-knight vs. queen is a draw, right?) 4) ... putting black in perpetual check

5) ... none of the above.

.

Last edited by THUDandBLUNDER on Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
kevinatilusa
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: 20 Another way that I can't see how to make work would be to trap black's king in the corner in such a way that none of your own pieces in that corner can move, or so that the bishop can safely move while maintaining the lock (you need some way to avoid black trapping your king in the corner of the board and forcing you to break up the formation).
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: 21 That's a good idea. Take the black knight and then use your remaining pieces to both protect each other and trap the king. You can force a capture of the black knight with 1. Pg7 NxP (forced), but I haven't been able to get it to work after that.
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: 22

 Laramie wrote: 1. Pg7 NxP (forced)

i presume Pg7 indicates your pawn (i'm used to not indicating pawns at all, so simply g7 would do).

why is Nxg7 forced? wouldn't Kg8 suffice? that prevents promotion of the pawn and seems to allow for black's pawn to reach the a-line. what am i missing?
kevinatilusa*
Guest

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: 23 If 1. ...Kg8 2. Ng4 threatens both Nxf2 and Ng6#
kevinatilusa*
Guest

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:35 pm    Post subject: 24 actually, isn't that double threat available after Nxg7 too?
kevinatilusa
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:47 pm    Post subject: 25 (now logged in so I can edit away embarrassments like the last two posts). In the first case, black can capture the knight at g6, and in the 2nd the king is on h8 and not g8.
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: 26

 kevinatilusa* wrote: If 1. ...Kg8 2. Ng4 threatens both Nxf2 and Ng6#

while hiding in shame because of not seeing that (btw should be Nf6# of course), i looked at the following:

1. g7 Nxg7 2. Bc5 a1Q

and then i meant to give perpetual check via 3. Nf7# Kg8 4. Nh6# Kh8 etc.

only problem is the queen covering the f-line. don't see a way around this yet...
kevinatilusa
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:14 am    Post subject: 27 Don't think Nf6 is mate. However, 1. g7+ Kg8 2. ng4 f1=Q 3. nf6+ Kf7 4. f8=Q# seems to force the knight capture
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: 28 yeah sorry about that i confused the check sign (+) with the mate sign (#)
Coyote

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: 29

 Tony Gardner wrote: 1. g7 Nxg7 2. Bc5 a1Q and then 1 meant to give perpetual check via 3. Nf7# Kg8 4. Nh6# Kh8 etc. only problem is da queen covering da f-line. don'7 see a way around this yet...

Following up on this idea...
1.g7 Nxg7
2.Nf7+ Kg8
3.Bc5 f1Q
4.Ba3
...with the idea of playing 5.Bb2, and the White King shuttles around between a2, a1, b1 to dodge checks by the queen. If 4...Qa6, White goes with the perpetual check by the knight. If 4...Qc4+, 5.Ka1.
_________________
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness pays off right now.
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: 30 I think black would simply play 4. ... Qxf7+ after which it's all over
Coyote

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: 31 Sorry, I left out a move: 1.g7 Nxg7 2.Nf7+ Kg8 3.Bc5 f1Q 4.Nh6+ Kh8 5.Ba3
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:14 am    Post subject: 32 yeah at first glance i can't find a way for to black to win. nice one coyote
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject: 33 What about 5. ... Qf2+ followed by 6. ...Qxf5 ? If the pawn at f5 is not protected, I don't see how that can be a draw.
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: 34 you mean Qg2+ followed by Qxg5? in that case white plays Nf7+ winning the queen
THUDandBLUNDER
Threefold Repetition

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: 35

 Tony Gardner wrote: yeah at first glance 1 c4n'7 find a way 4 to black to win. nice one coyote

5. Ba3 Qc4+
6. Ka1 Ne6
7. Bb2+ Nd4
and the Black king escapes.

.

Last edited by THUDandBLUNDER on Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: 36 okay, back to the drawing table...
Guest

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: 37 Sorry, but I'm still not understanding #1. Was borchevsky's move list of 1.Ba7+ Kc7 2. b6+ Kd8 3.Kc1 Bxg4 4.Kd1 Ke7 5.Ke1 Rg8 6.Kf1 Be6 7.Bb8 correct? If so, or if it did start 1.Ba7+, why wouldn't the next part be RxB or KxB???
Tony Gardner
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: 38 borchevsky' solution as in posts 2 and 4 does the job. if the bishop is taken by black after 1. Ba7+ , then the white king can reach h1 in time and a draw is realised (nowhere for the rook to enter, Rg2 would be a stalemate).
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject: 39 In the interests of collaborative solving, a few thoughts: Coyote's approach is promising, but I feel like white has to take black's knight to make it work. Another line that seems to have some promise is 1. Nf7+ .... 2. g6Xh7, forcing 2. .... Kxh7. The only moves that seem to have any real possibilities are 1. g7+ 1. Nf7+ 1. Bc5 1. Bh6 1. Ng4 Unfortunately, none of them seem to quite do it.
Laramie
Daedalian Member

 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: 40 Also, I think the real trick here is to somehow manage to take black's knight without losing white's knight or bishop. If you can do that, there are numerous ways to trap the king in the corner.
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